Phil Starr

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Annoyingly after we have done all this work Beyma have now upgraded and changed the SM212 Don't panic though, I've run the new driver through WinISD and frankly the changes are fairly minor and IMO an improvement. Basically they have made the cone slighly heavier, stiffened the suspension a little and maybe made some tweaks of the coil/magnet circuit. It means the frequency response is a little flatter and the speaker will work slightly better in a small box. With the proviso that all our tests were on the old driver I think it will work very well in our cab. Anyway on a quick look this is what they've done.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Xmax is now 8.25mm up from 7mm, that's entirely down to changing the way they calculate it. They used to use the most pessimistic way of calculating Xmax but now use the rather more optimistic methods used by Eminence and others. Either way it is very good for a driver at this price level.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Vd (total air shifted) is correspondingly increased but nothing has really changed apart from the calculations.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]They've changed to a heavier cone which has changed the frequency response a little. The new speaker will give a slightly cleaner and more extended bass, but hardly noticeable unless you put them next to each other IMO. The thicker cone has damped out the 2kHz cone resonance that some of us have noticed in the prototypes. This is probably a good thing but I've got quite fond of the little brightness/slight roughness on some notes. Again this is probably a subtle improvement in the new driver.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The quoted frequency range in Beyma's specs has gone from 45-6000Hz in the old version to 45-4000 in the new driver, actually the frequency response curve is very similar so I don't think that you'd notice any loss of top end apart from the damped cone resonance at 2000Hz.. These figures are at a -10dB level but as the curve isn't flat it's not altogether clear what they are using as the base level. the old driver crosses the 90dB line at 6000 Hz and the new one at 5,500Hz.. There isn't really a loss of 2000Hz from the top end.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Not in the above, but to my mind more significant, is that with changes in the suspension and the cone plus some other tweaking Vas has come down to 103l which means this driver is happier in a smaller cab like the Basschat 12. The result is that the small bass peak of about 2dB in the original is down to 0.5db with the new driver and there's a tiny bit more low bass, perhaps 0.5db at bottom E. You won't notice that but you probably would notice the cleaner bass around 100Hz.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The heavier cone and slightly stiffer suspension also means the midrange efficiency is slightly down.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]So, to be fair to Beyma I think what they have done is tweaked a bargain speaker slightly; which makes it more usable in a small cab like my design giving a slightly better (in the sense of flatter) frequency response with almost no penalty to the user. I can't see any reason to change the design at the moment.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]In case you missed it there's a thread in the build diaries of someone who has built the 1x12 [/font][/color][url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/282230-a-1x12-or-maybe-two/"]http://basschat.co.u...2-or-maybe-two/[/url] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Blue Aran have the SM212 in stock for once [/font][/color][url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BMASM212"]http://www.bluearan....php?id=BMASM212[/url][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color]

Hi all, I've just run this through WinISD and had a good look through the specs of both the old and new SM212 drivers. First I'll deal with the specs above. Xmax is now 8.25mm up from 7mm, that's entirely down to changing the way they calculate it. They used to use the most pessimistic way of calculating Xmax but now use the rather more optimistic methods used by Eminence and others. Either way it is very good for a driver at this price level. Vd (total air shifted) is correspondingly increased but nothing has really changed apart from the calculations. They've changed to a heavier cone which has changed the frequency response a little. The new speaker will give a slightly cleaner and more extended bass, but hardly noticeable unless you put them next to each other IMO. The thicker cone has damped out the 2kHz cone resonance that some of us have noticed in the prototypes. This is probably a good thing but I've got quite fond of the little brightness/slight roughness on some notes. Again this is probably a subtle improvement in the new driver. The quoted frequency range in Beyma's specs has gone from 45-6000Hz in the old version to 45-4000 in the new driver, actually the frequency response curve is very similar so I don't think that you'd notice any loss of top end apart from the damped cone resonance at 2000Hz.. These figures are at a -10dB level but as the curve isn't flat it's not altogether clear what they are using as the base level. the old driver crosses the 90dB line at 6000 Hz and the new one at 5,500Hz.. Not in the above, but to my mind more significant, is that with changes in the suspension and the cone plus some other tweaking Vas has come down to 103l which means this driver is happier in a smaller cab like the Basschat 12. The result is that the small bass peak of about 2dB in the original is down to 0.5db with the new driver and there's a tiny bit more low bass, perhaps 0.5db at bottom E. You won't notice that but you probably would notice the cleaner bass around 100Hz. The heavier cone and slightly stiffer suspension also means the midrange efficiency is slightly down. So, to be fair to Beyma I think what they have done is tweaked a bargain speaker slightly; which makes it more usable in a small cab like my design giving a slightly better (in the sense of flatter) frequency response with almost no penalty to the user. I can't see any reason to change the design at the moment. I'll post this into the main thread too.

Hi, I need a new computer, it won't open Beyma's new spec sheet Grrr Looking at the specs on Blue Aran's website though it looks like they've made some quite extensive changes though with a heavier cone, different voice coil and suspension. As soon as I get time I'll check the modelling and let you know what I think. My instinct is that using this speaker in a 50l cab tuned to 50Hz is still going to work well but the heavier cone may be less liable to flex, tightening up the bass at the expense of a little treble extension. I'm not committing to anything until I've modelled it though. I'll post here first then update the design thread.

Hi Les Looks like you are unlucky. The Peavey has a filter so that only the bass gets through (a low pass filter) to the sub, but everything goes through to the tops. That means the tops will still have to deal with all the bass. More modern designs will usually have a complete crossover built into the sub, often with two outputs offering the option of filtered or unfiltered. So run the leads to the subs and you can then daisy chain the tops from the subs. This will bethe same as running all the leads from the desk or running to the tops and then the subs but its probably going to be the tiniest solution on stage, less to trip over. With this set up you'll be getting just a little bass boost from the subs but the tops will still get all the bass so you'll still need to avoid overloading them. It'll work but isn't the best way of using subs. You could experiment with rolling off the bass by using the soloist mode on the Mackie, or even the monitor mode, though this cuts some midst as well. Try fiddling around with different combinations when you are rehearsing. If it sounds good use it if not then keep it simple. Ideally though you ought to think of getting a crossover if you are going to use this a lot at high volume levels, cutting the bass to the tops will give you a better sound and more headroom. They cost less than £100 for a budget brand.

Hi Les, yes it does matter. Somewhere in the chain you need to have a crossover so the bass only goes to the subs and is Stopped from going to the tops. There might be a crossover built into your mixer or the subs. There isn't one in the tops. I couldn't find a manual for the Peavey so I can't help there much, it has a crossover to the sub but you need to find out if it has a high pass output to the tops. If not then you may need a separate crossover. If you can find a link to a manual for the Peavey I'll have a look for you

[quote name='Westie9' timestamp='1403760300' post='2485939'] Sounds like its going to be a great one!!! We'll try and get a power source from outside the room in case it does go... As a rough guide I'll monitor it via an app I've found but 98dBs does sound very low... Hopefully as mentioned above it has a traffic light system so at least I can see something during the gig. Can't wait...... [/quote] There's a possibility it won't be too bad. Most bands operate at around the 100db level as their on stage levels. If the limiter is a few metres away then the sound falls away 6db every time the distance doubles. On the down side it depends upon how the software is set up. At this level peaks are going to go above 120db so if it works on peaks then you've no chance. If it on average sound levels over say a few seconds you'll probably be fine. Ive always looked for another socket to bypass the limiter on the principle that my first duty is to the client and not the venue

The original drivers were probably Fane, Goodman or Celestion. Watch your volume though the horns were similarly low powered and they are unlikely to cope with a high power bass amp especially if you run with any fx or distortion/overdrive.

Sitting or standing? It depends upon why you are practicing. We probably all know but don't always put into practice (see what I did there) the idea that practice should always be for a reason. You'd do different things if you were working on a scale exercise/new song/working out a bassline from the repetition of something you already 'know' to get it up to gig standard. I'd say that once you've got the song down and you are polishing it up to gig standard then you need to start playing it standing. I tend to do this stage at something approaching gig volumes and practice my moves too, sort of air guitar with a real bass. Just hope my wife doesn't get back whilst I'm posing

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1469480633' post='3098743'] What's good enough for Jack Casady is good enough for me. [/quote]Don't you play drums? Danny Thompson, got to dig out Pentangle later on. Today is going to be a good day.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1469436004' post='3098175'] These versions (and more) all predate Natalie Imbruglia ... the song was composed and written by members of Ednaswap (Anne Preven and Scott Cutler) and producer (Phil Thornally who also produced the Natalie Imbruglia album). [media]http://youtu.be/V1SH1YdITDI[/media] [/quote] I remember reading an interview with Paul Bushnell, bassist with Ednaswap. Finding out their song they'd been gigging for years was a hit without them being involved broke up the band. Paul Bushnell did allright out of it having seen who he's played with since, here's the article. [url="http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/nov09/articles/paulbushnell.htm"]http://www.performin...aulbushnell.htm[/url] As a cover band player (whatever that is, I'm so unsure ) I have to say the bass line the session guy put on the hit version is a lot of fun to play.

What sort of music do you play? I would use completely different methods to promote a young band playing originals to the method I would use to promote a covers band. unfortunately Lemonrock hasn't really hit Bristol in a big way yet. In areas where it is strong its a great resource for cover bands. There are thousands of gigs on there so it has become the go to resource for anyone wanting to go to a pub gig. If you were based in Weston or Burnham it might be worth a punt. Google shows any number of gig sites for Bristol, look for ones with a load of gigs that bands like yours use. Bristol itself has a great music scene if you are playing originals you'll need to tap into that. Loads of musicians there will go to see each other, there are two universities to tap into if you play to that sort of audience. There's a lot of word of mouth, social media sharing and no shortage of fly posting. For me I think Facebook is a dead duck when used directly by a band. Have a page and keep it up to date but beyond that sending messages to people who are swamped already isn't going to achieve much.

That is quite a meaty PA and what they have is really an automatic volume control it seems. You've correctly identified the problem as being where they are monitoring from. The on stage volume of a rock band is likely to be around 103dB and you can reckon on a 6dB fall every tome you double the distance from the sound source. There won't be much reinforcement from reflection in a tent. It could be ok but I would quickly try and talk to the venue to find out. It might be good to get the names of other bands who have played there to see how it worked for them If you seriously think it will be a problem then contact your client. The venue are far more likely to respond to the person paying them. If the venue can't provide the facilities they want then there might be contractual issues if they didn't warn their clients about noise restrictions. The venue may be subject to restrictions from the council of course. It can be part of a planning application or an entertainments licence. If the noise restriction is sophisticated enough you may be fine. I'd also raise the issue of monitors on stage.

Any other lazy B****rs like me using this site to work out songs. I'm a quick fix sort of a person (with cloth ears) and anything that helps me close in on a bassline quickly I'll use. I like to use an accurate chord chart as a starting point with new songs. If you haven't used Riffstation it runs off You Tube and works out the chord changes. The software seems to slightly favour bass, the first beat of the bar and the loudest sounds so often good for us low enders. It's far from 100% accurate, it gets confused by more harmonically challenging music and only seems to do major and minor chords. If anything it tends to put in more chord changes than are actually there. But when the usual suspect tab sites don't have an accurate chord chart it's becoming my go to. It's also fun to see when the computers get it right.

I use one of the old Kickback 10s for small gigs and semi acoustic stuff. I quite like it as an on stage monitor with most bass going through the PA but some drummers aren't so keen on low bass volumes on stage. To be honest it struggles at loud rehearsals and most gigs so I end up cutting deep bass. Doubling the power is going to help but that will also depend upon the speaker they use. Its on my list of things to try. 250W is just about where power becomes enough, a single speaker has to be a good one to be enough on its own.

I recon you are over thinking this. You keep mentioning the tone you want and the only way you'll find this is by listening. Most of us can get by with a good 210 so anything bigger than this should be capable enough. You have a rig that works so there is no rush. Take your time and go out ands listen to as many rigs as you can and try them out in shops when you have time. Keep going until you find the tone monster you are looking for. The trouble is that all the words we use for describing sound are so vague. Heft anyone?

OK, If you wanted original I suspect the one I used would be available. It belongs to a friend and sits there unused. There's lots of old Peavey cabs out there with BW's in but beware there are several models I think Eminence Basslites would work well in this cab and give you a worthwhile reduction in weight with a similar sort of sound to the original speakers. The Eminence 3015HO might also work but I'd want to check the dimensions and run a full set of calculations before recommending them firmly. As I remember the cab was actually rather small for the original BW's and tuned too high but sounded nice nonetheless. Unfortunately I know I won't see my mate for the next few weeks, we play in a duo together. That means I can't measure the cab myself. These are both quite pricey recommendations, there are cheaper options if you want.

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1468260536' post='3089690'] I can synthesise with the drummer issue. Ive had the same drummer for 14 years and he never rehearses at home, cant remember any new bits we add, cant keep time, doesn't have the stamina to keep a steady beat....i could go on and on. utterly soul destroying but its really only now getting to me. I guess my tolerance is a lot higher than most people. [/quote] You've reassured me no end. If you were based in Exeter I'd think it was the same drummer. It wasn't just the drummer either. I got more and more frustrated, started to say things, tried to be constructive but they didn't like it and found myself between bands. FWIW I think the OP has it right, honouring the commitment makes you the professional and then you can put it behind you and chalk it up to experience.

just looked at the cab in your gear, is it the Peavey that matches the Mk IV head, I used to have one of those, They came with two Black Widow 15's with the metal domes if it is the same cab which gave quite a nice bright tone. If it is then the dimensions are a bit off.

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1468403274' post='3090650'] I was referring to the type the OP was particularly asking about in my response. Yes, I know that PA cabs can do bass! [/quote] Hi Dan, yep I knew you'd know that I just didn't want the OP or anyone else to think it was an impossible quest. Technically it's do-able but it won't be dirt cheap and he'd have to allow for a super clean sound, which not everyone likes. Whether a PA speaker is easier to carry than a lightweight combo is another issue too. I guess that if money is no object the AER Amp One would be ideal

Yep, the dimensions are pretty much the starting point. I'd not recommend anything without knowing that at least they match the cab well enough to handle the power you are likely to use. Is there a budget limit? It wouldn't be hard to spend £200 a speaker.

[quote name='biro' timestamp='1468337647' post='3090257'] Then, however, I thought: what about buying a powered speaker, and putting a sansamp or Zoom B3 before it, running my amp / cab combo combination? After all, I thought, one could probably get better bang for the buck in terms of wattage My question, broadly, is whether something like this http://www.thomann.de/gb/ld_systems_play_12a.htm [/quote] [quote name='dood' timestamp='1468338682' post='3090271'] PA active cabinets will work - I mean, you can plug your bass in to them via the B3 and you'll be able to hear yourself as long as the rest of the band aren't too loud. Certainly the plastic box versions you have linked to will easily be swallowed up if the guitarist turns up with a 30W valve amp cranked. The other downside is that those PA cabinets aren't really designed to 'do' bass end. Great for vocals and the top end of keys maybe, but our bass frequencies require lots of energy to be heard (have girth etc) so you may be left for wanting unless it's only for monitoring purposes where you aren't bothered with not having low end. [/quote] It's not quite true that PA speakers aren't designed to do bass. the better ones are. They are expected to have both the bass and kick drums running through them and at similar volumes, maybe louder than the backline. What you can't expect is something to do the job for £200. Let's say the competition is between a conventional lightweight setup and and a PA speaker. If you went the Markbass/Barefaced route You'd end up paying £900 ish. Part of this is because you are paying for something optimised for bass and part of this is because anything bass is automatically a bit specialised and made in smaller production runs. So, the better comparison would be with something like QSC or RCF. The RCF ART712 might be a better comparison at about £500. Add in a bass pre amp and you are talking £6-700. There's a small saving because the PA speaker is more of a mass produced product and you have a much better tweeter and crossover than most bass gear. In this case the 12" driver is designed to handle bass. What you lose is having a sound deliberately coloured to flatter your bass, though you may be able to eq some of that back in. I started out using PA speakers for my bass. It works no problem, in fact I personally liked the hi-fi sound and I'm toying with the idea of using them again. Fundamentally though you can't have cheap, light and loud all at the same time, what you are suggesting is do-able but you'll need to invest. If there is a PMT near you then you could probably try your bass through the PA speakers.

Before you do this you should be aware of the possible outcome. Speaker cabs work by balancing the air load in the cab against the movement of the cone which acts as both a spring and a damper. In a ported cab like yours the port also tunes the cab to the speaker making sure you get the most output from the speakers and the best power handling. If you swap speakers around without anyone doing the calculations then two probelms might occur. You may not get a great sound and the bass might not be great. If you lower the power handling enough then your speaker might blow. They only handle the rated power in the right cab. Skidder will testify to that, he put two expensive speakers into two random cabs and lost one of them because the cab wasn't suitable. The other worked fine. I'm not saying the swap won't work just that you need to get someone to check or it could be £150 wasted. Worth noting that these are up for sale on BC http://basschat.co.uk/topic/287056-celestion-bn10-neo-speakers/

I doubt if an A string would sound fine and an E string not because of a blown speaker. You could try putting some music through it from an iPod at a decent volume and see how it sounds, that will be more revealing than just bass. Damaged but working speakers often make a scratching sound when the coil rubs against the magnet gap. The trick is to push the cone backwards a couple of mm whilst listening for any undue noises. To do that use a cup or wide rimmed glass centred in the cone so that you can push the cone evenly without twisting it side to side. I think it's going to be OK though. good luck.

Don't they make all our PA and bass gear in Italy? RCF, Markbass.... I'd have thought there wouldn't be too great a problem hiring gear there.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1467745763' post='3085896'] Just to clarify, the HPF on the first six channels on the XR684 is set at 80Hz - so that will take a whole world of hurt of your tops.[/quote] Spot on. Keeps all the subsonic crap picked up by the stage mics out of the mains and really protects them from over excursion and you won't need or hear the sub 80Hz stuff anyway. [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1467745763' post='3085896']The monitor send is full range and if you have a powered sub, chances are it will have a crossover on it anyway. This means your sub will take care of typically everything sub 100hz.[/quote] My apologies, that's right about the HPF filter, I took a brief look at the manual and hadn't spotted that it works on the bus (all the first six channels at once) rather than on each input channel. It's an unusual arrangement but I should have spotted it. [quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1467745763' post='3085896']Running the sub off the monitor is only like running a sub off an aux and is far from unusual in the pro world. Just because it's not usual in a pub band doesn't mean it's not a viable solution - in fact, in pro PA it's the preferable solution. By having control of the monitor send you explicitly keep vocals out of the subs which is infinitely more useful at keeping low end rumble out of the subs than running crossovers. (Better that nothing unwanted be present feeding into the subs that doesn't have to be right?) [/quote] Yeah I had thought of inputting something about Aux Fed Subs but given the nature of the question decided it was possibly overkill. For those who don't know it is a well tried and tested method of running a PA. To get the best out of it as a system you kind of need to understand a bit about sound and (for me) a separate mix for the subs and mains. For anyone interested in Aux Fed Subs this is an interesting article [url="http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/a_detailed_explanation_of_the_aux_fed_subwoofer_technique/"]http://www.prosoundw...ofer_technique/[/url] I think the OP is moving towards building up a decent PA (those Peavey mains aren't great) so that's a good decision but he could try what you've been suggesting all along.