Beer of the Bass

There have been a few BC threads on the bass version, and it seems the consensus seems to be that the latency is a little too much for it to be useful to most players. But I'm wondering whether the guitar version might be worth a try. There are a couple of songs in the band I play guitar with where I'd like to drop in some sounds which I can't make with a guitar alone. It occurs to me that using the MIDI synth module I already have (a Mutable Instruments Shruthi) could really open up some interesting avenues. I could use a small MIDI keyboard, but the idea of stomping on an A/B switch and triggering it from the guitar is kind of appealing. Since the Shruthi is a mono synth, the monophonic nature of the Sonuus might not be a limitation. I'm thinking of ambient/spacey noises, or slow filter-swept pad type sounds rather than trying to play riffs or basslines, so perhaps the latency would be less of an issue than it is for people trying to play funk bass with it. Has anyone on here tried the G2M, and do you reckon I could use it for this without too much frustration?

It looks like one of these: [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Double-bass-pick-up-/190451348663?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c57c8f4b7"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Double-bass-pick-up-/190451348663?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c57c8f4b7[/url]

The big bridges do look a bit weird. I'd be inclined to stick one of these on the five string version: [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bass-Guitar-Bridge-5-String-Chrome-With-Mounting-Pegs-Screws-allen-key-/281265741124?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item417cbe9d44"]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bass-Guitar-Bridge-5-String-Chrome-With-Mounting-Pegs-Screws-allen-key-/281265741124?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item417cbe9d44[/url]

I built a little valve overdrive/preamp box a while ago which was loosely based on the Real McTube design. I added a simple tone control in between the two stages (of the kind used in some 50s Fender amps) and changed some component values to make it more amp-y sounding than the stock circuit. Any more complex passive tone stack would be more lossy and you might not have enough signal to overdrive the second triode. Sweepable mids would need an active tone stack and increase the parts count greatly, to the point where you'd essentially be designing something from the ground up. I'm quite happy with mine, it doesn't get into high gain distortion but is excellent for a bit of grit and it works well as a slightly dirty boost too. My one reservation is that it's quite picky about what the output is plugged into - it's fine into any high impedance input like you would use with a passive bass, but it doesn't work well if it's plugged into a lower impedance input. In my usual setup it's not an issue, but I thought I'd mention it. There are some photos and my modified schematic in this thread: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/182457-valve-preamp-overdrive-pedal/page__view__findpost__p__1744666"]http://basschat.co.u...ost__p__1744666[/url]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1429623447' post='2753321'] How 'super light weight' are we talking? [/quote] I think CamdenRob is another EA Wizzy 10 user, so I guess it would have to be no heavier than the Wizzy (17lbs) to be a desirable alternative, though I presume that one of your 10" drivers would probably get louder than the Wizzy 10 does. Something to compete with the Greenboy designed Crazy-8 cab.

If these have metal cores and winding inside, I wonder if someone could build a bass uke with ordinary magnetic pickups? It might solve some of the string-to-string balance problems that crop up with the piezo bridges.

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1429604486' post='2752990'] Acoustic bass deko. 5 string. [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_b_35nt_acoustic_bass_s_deko.htm"]http://www.thomann.d...bass_s_deko.htm[/url] [/quote] I wonder how many they've got? The last batch of these must have been quite big as they stayed around for a while.

I got a couple of sets of the old formula Elixirs about 15 years ago from a guitar show stand, along with assorted freebies like a plastic mug and t-shirt. I found that the coating on the old style Elixirs used to peel in a most offputting manner after a couple of months, as though my bass had dandruff. I don't know if they did this for everyone or if my playing style or body chemistry at the time did them in. The mug is still going strong though, I take it camping in the summer!

I think they're likely to be the same drivers, as all the other Faital 6" drivers have much higher Fs and don't look suitable for bass at all. I'm sure I could get something viable out of them, but on balance the 1x8" looks like a more sensible choice for me.

I did a little more reading on Xmax calculations. It looks like P-Audio use (voice coil height - gap depth) / 2. If I do the same calculation for the Faital 6FE100 for a like-for-like comparison between the two, it comes out at a rather less impressive 3.25mm. Thinking about it some more, I've decided to go with the P-Audio! It weighs hardly anything at 1.5Kg and should be able to move a little more air, so should make for a useful little cab. I'll do a simple plywood box with a tube port, which will probably look quite similar to Jecklin's cab when I'm done. Stevie, I'm wondering what port tuning you went with for yours. I've been looking at this driver in WinISD, and it seems to be a bit of a balancing act between keeping decent power handling down low and keeping port length reasonable for a small box.

Is it really a bass uke, or is it some sort of error in the title? The strings and tuners look an awful lot like a standard uke.

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1429359628' post='2750769'] Good thinking. If you're not happy you could always fit an 8" driver in the same cab as long you make the baffle removable. By the way, make sure you're comparing xmax figures measured the same way - Faital are more optimistic than P.Audio. [/quote] The removable baffle may be a good call anyway, as I don't fancy trying to work on the inside (for bracing and lining) through little 6" openings. The cab shape and size I'm looking at would certainly fit a single 8" with a port underneath as a plan B, though the volume then would be closer to 15 litres due to the space occupied by the port. X-max between different manufacturers is a subject I don't really have a handle on yet. For example, I've read that Faital's method of measuring it comes out optimistic while Celestion's figures are conservative, but I haven't read enough yet to figure out how different manufacturers compare on this.

I can sort of see where both Bootsy and Bill F. are coming from here. I guess some adjustment of expectation is required for a musical genre where speakers with wildly uneven frequency response, running past their Xmax and distorting, over a background of port-chuffing noise would be considered a desirable sound and it's going to seem downright ridiculous to someone who has spent decades designing these properties out of their speakers. But on the other hand, walking into a dimly lit room with a band making that kind of sound through a huge array of weirdly cobbled together equipment can have its own particular impact. Though if you put it together and find it's not quite doing what you wanted, Alex's advice on porting would probably be a good avenue to investigate.

I had a bit more of a play around with WinISD, comparing the Faitals I already have at hand with the P-Audio driver. I think the Faital 2x6" might still be worth a shot, considering that they're sat here waiting to be used. In a 16l sealed box they get as loud as the P-Audio (which I modelled in a 16l box tuned to 45Hz) from 80Hz upwards, both in terms of efficiency and maximum SPL. A bit more low end is available if the box is a couple of litres larger and ported, but since I'm going for small rather than loud here I think I'll try them sealed first. It's not going to push much fundamental, but it looks like it should be quite even sounding from the first harmonic upwards and would make for a nice slim box to tuck under my arm and get the bus with, or to squeeze into tiny spaces.

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1429261739' post='2749713'] I can see that the psychedelic paint job might might appeal to disco and funk players. Which is slightly ironic, because you'd never be able to play octaves on that thing... [/quote] I dunno, I'm sure you could string it with two E strings an octave apart. Instant disco machine!

I think there's more than one model of Crate Taxi, but I remember plugging my bass into one belonging to a friend, and it didn't cut it for bass - no low end at all. I think a couple of people on here have had good results with the QTX battery powered mini-PA units - they look like you get a bit more for the money than with most of the battery powered instrument amps.

Hmm, having looked up the price of that P-Audio driver I'm now wondering whether I should punt the Faitals on eBay and look at one of those! That's very well priced for a neo driver, and the high mid and treble response looks like it would be nice and even for acoustic instrument use.

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1429190847' post='2749014'] The Faitals are probably not a great choice for bass guitar. They are more more suited to a studio monitor and you really need an enclosure volume of around 25 litres (each) to make the most of them. They would work in a smaller reflex box, but you'll struggle with porting (as you stated) if you go below 15 litres per driver. To get something compact, I'd be tempted to try a sealed box of around 15 litres using both drivers. The shallowness of the sealed box slope should compensate for the high rolloff. For home practice use, sealed cabinets tend to sound less 'lumpy' than reflex, although they obviously won't go as loud. [/quote] There does seem to be a juggling act when looking at ported vs sealed with this, as the extra output from a ported design could be irrelevant if the port is making noises before that point. I looked at putting them in around 18 litres, ported at 50Hz with a pair of 51mm round tubes. This provided about the best compromise I could find, but with an input of 100 watts the port velocity becomes too high below 50Hz. That could be worked around with a high pass filter, but the sealed design might be a more elegant solution. It may be that I don't need a lot of low end in these settings anyway as we're talking about something for quiet use. Regarding the IKEA drawer, I'm not sure if they do it any more but the closest thing I've seen is this 30x30x20cm solid birch wall cabinet. It would need a baffle and I suspect the back will be very thin. I probably won't try it, but I'm sure it could be adapted with a bit of tinkering! [url="http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/30252360/#/30252360"]http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/30252360/#/30252360[/url]

[quote name='Jecklin' timestamp='1429030654' post='2747221'] Just done some fag packet maths and with the big port my cab is about 15.5 litres. If IKEA still sell these things (a decade on who knows?) It is a really easy way to get a light, stiff box to mount both your drivers in. [/quote] That looks like a neat little cab, though if I do a 2x6" I'm looking at something just a couple of litres more than that so perhaps the IKEA option isn't for me. Just for the sake of comparison, I've been playing around with a simulation of the driver and box size used in the Crazy 8 cab, though I've had to guess at what their port tuning might be. It looks like a similarly sized 2x6" cab with the 6FE100 drivers might do a somewhat comparable job, though the low end response of the 2x6" is less smooth with a small mid-bass bump.

I found Cropredy didn't work for me at all, and I won't be going again! I like festivals with more than one thing happening, where you can wander around and find something interesting. Being stuck in that one field with one stage, one bar and terrible food stalls round the edge was no fun at all for me. It all felt a bit enforced, as though there was only one "correct" way to enjoy a festival. I like several of the smaller festivals up here in Scotland, like Doune the Rabbit Hole and Knockengorroch.

It might be a good idea to post about this in the Amps & Cabs section. There are several posters there who are often helpful on the subject of cab design, and I'm not sure if they read the other bits of Basschat. Although I would hazard a guess that one or two of them will be a bit bemused by the whole idea, you might get some useful input along the way!

[quote name='TheG' timestamp='1429049377' post='2747532'] Yes I know a few bass players who swear by not using an amp even with drummers in a jazz club setting. I was speaking to one who said "if I use an amp the drummer will only get louder". I know plenty of drummers who wouldn't even consider this thought though and play loud regardless of whats going on. Catch 22 really. [/quote] I've tried that and it worked (almost, sort of), though I found that I was at the top end of my dynamic range the whole night while the drummer was coasting along gently. This is perhaps not the most enjoyable way to perform, and I'll be using a bit of amp if I do that gig again! I wonder if this was easier in the days of heavy cymbals and calfskin heads, when the bass drum was used for accents rather than to keep time.

I considered the Thomann Ovid mic for a while, though I was worried that it looked a bit flimsy. In the end I went for a simple cardioid small-diaphragm condenser mounted between the bridge feet with elastic hairbands. Mine is an AKG Perception 150. It works very well run through FOH in a setting with no (or minimal) drums, any other use is marginal. I know a local ceilidh band who amplify most of their instruments with DPA mics. It sounds good, but they spend about half an hour notching out the feedback with graphic EQ racks each time they set up the PA!

Have you used a modelling program like WinISD to figure out the size and shape of the ports in the front? That should be your first port of call when trying to work the area and length of ports to use - they're not just vents to reduce heat. I wonder how much heat the drivers will actually produce - If that's a VBA400 in the picture, each driver would only be handling 50 watts at full output, so perhaps heat won't be such a big issue.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1429013081' post='2746971'] No idea about all that techinal stuff you just asked, but I also use an MB200 / Wizzy 10 setup for acoustic style gigs and it's great. I reckon it's the smallest usable set up you can get away with (except perhaps one of those PJB jobbies). I did try out a few practice amps etc but none of them made my bass actually sound like a bass, just a nasty honky twang. [/quote] Yes, the Wizzy is a nice piece of kit. This project is driven more by curiosity than any real desire to replace it. Also, coming up with something plain looking and low in value could have its uses - during August when the Edinburgh Fringe is on I've often ended up leaving gear stored in various places to avoid lugging it through the crowds each time.