Dan Dare

I realise that. I didn't always have money. It's amazing what working for 50 years and not wasting money on frippery can do for the state of one's bank balance... Yes, £3k is very much entry level in PA terms. Add it up. You need some modest but not rubbish powered cabs (say a pair of 15s or a pair of 10s plus a sub, which is what one would need to cover any small to medium sized venue without the system sounding as if it's about to self-destruct, You can go the passive cabs plus power amp route if you want, but the cost will be about the same), a mixing desk with proper eq and onboard fx, monitors (being able to hear yourself does wonders for the ability to remain in tune), some decent microphones and DI boxes (garbage in, garbage out, remember), stands, cables and sundries. Buy new and you'll see little change from £3k unless you buy tat. £600 a head for a band PA is actually something of a bargain. "It's only a hobby", I hear you cry. OK, name a hobby that you can pursue properly for £600 or less. If you have any aspirations to make music into a part or full time occupation, you won't get far if the band sounds like sh1te or nobody can hear what you're all doing, regardless of how good the individual players are. That's the reality.

Then you cannot expect to share in the benefits of that decision.

I'm in a similar position. I've made my money, am comfortably retired and do not need to earn from playing (or anything I do, for that matter). I have all the toys I've ever wanted and, crucially, own my home. I suspect you are in the same position. Relatively few are in our fortunate position. The hippy idyll is not a realistic possibility for most. Life can only be simple if you can afford to make it so, which you and I can.

Let's flip it on its head - "Guitar player seeks band. I will not contribute towards any jointly used equipment or expenses, but I expect to enjoy the benefits of the money the rest of you have spent and be treated as a full partner and receive an equal share of anything the band makes". Not sure that'll be a huge success, either. Is that what is meant by "the right attitude"? £600 is peanuts. For a 5 piece band, that equates to a PA that cost £3k, which is a little (but not much) above entry level. There is no guaranteed minimum payback in life and especially not in business. You invest in equipment, acquire the right knowledge and skills, etc, work hard and hope you will recoup. If you want a guaranteed minimum payback, you need a job that pays a fixed wage. Would you be happy to join a band on a fixed wage, regardless of how much money the band made? Or would you want to be an equal partner when it came to dividing the spoils? If the latter, you need to make a similar investment as your colleagues. Otherwise, you are expecting a free (or at least subsidised) ride from them.

So if a band had recently spent £10k on a quality PA (less than mine cost, incidentally) and you were invited to join a month later, you'd expect to benefit from it for nowt?

Trivia question. Who played bass on Beat It?

Oh yes. See my previous comment about his loving a barney on here. I'm just amusing myself. I don't really care what he thinks or does.

And? The gear was mine. I was free to do as I wished with it. "Brand new"? They could have (and did) bought something used. Had they bought mine, that too would have been used. Actually, I didn't "jump ship". We agreed mutually that I should go - musical differences and all that... Don't you think you're clutching at straws?

This. There are a number of alternative good quality cables in addition to VD and you can even use Switchcraft connectors if you're feeling flush. Generally, the words "durable" and budget" don't exist in the same universe. Given that the difference between a high quality cable and a mediocre one is around a fiver, it isn't worth saving when you take the increased lifespan of the decent one into account.

That's why I decided to get my own PA in the first place. That and the fact that owning a quality PA makes people far more likely to want you in their band.

Agreed. Were my daughter ever to have started a band, I would have been in a position to do it for her, but it's relatively rare and not something one can rely on being the case.

Which is exactly what I suggest, so why are we arguing (I know you are partial to a barney on here)? In most cases, the person leaving will probably be happy to sell their piece of gear to the band. If there is no shared ownership, it makes for a clearer transaction - no need to get the whole rig valued, haggle about what would be a fair price, etc, etc. Make him/her an offer. If he/she accepts, fine. If not, get a new mixer or whatever. In my case, I didn't want to sell the gear I owned when I left the band I mention above, as I used it as a starting point to put together my first PA (many years ago now). Instead of having part of the used price of an entire PA (which wouldn't have been a lot), I had a perfectly serviceable Soundcraft mixer and fx rack that I could put to good use. "Who owns all the special cables? That's really going to screw things up when your drummer disappears in a bad mood and takes his cables with him..." The replacement drummer will need to provide his/her own.

Not twisting your words at all. Yours is an unusual (and fortunate) situation, which you acknowledge tbf to you. However, very few are likely to be in your circumstances - a member of the band having a father who owns a decent PA and who is prepared to turn out for £50. Were that not the case, you and the band would have to put your hands in your pockets - either to hire or buy a PA - so the Bank of Dad (not mum and dad) is lending a helping hand, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Really? Replace the missing part with another of the same type and I rather think it will.

Handy if you can rely on the Bank of Dad (yours or someone else's) to insulate you from financial reality, but not universally applicable. As for "What he buys and how much he spends" being "up to him", I doubt you would be happy if he decided to turn up with gear he paid £150 for in Cash Converters... The PA is not equivalent to your bass amp. Only you use that, but everyone relies on the PA.

A PA is not a discreet whole. It's a collection of components - mixer, FOH, monitors, etc. Splitting it isn't akin to buying something like a vehicle jointly, where it would be impractical for one to own the engine, one the bodywork, etc because it operates as a whole and cannot easily be divided. I have just upgraded my mixer. It still works with the rest on my gear. As far as storage, transport etc of the PA is concerned, if individuals own parts of it, they are responsible for that with the parts they own. It also solves the issue of one person using the PA for their own benefit, because nobody has the complete rig (they are free to negotiate with others to borrow/hire the rest of it if they wish). If a PA is a small, main vocal only rig, it seems reasonable to expect the singer to provide and maintain it. In a situation where someone joins an established band with jointly owned assets - PA, lights, etc - it may not be appropriate for them to be charged a "joining fee". However, I would consider it reasonable, were I in that situation, to be asked to contribute over time out of my gig fees in order to put me on a par with those who have done similarly, with the amount to be negotiated. This is especially the case if the band has bought out a previous member's share of jointly owned assets. These days, I own a PA and charge a fee for its use to bands I play with. They are free not to use it and hire if they choose, but in practice, I'm a lot cheaper than doing that, so the situation never arises. I have to arrive early, set up, mix and then tear down and take it home afterwards, I do more work and have invested a significant amount in my system, so I should see a return on that. If it's a fun gig with friends, I don't charge, of course, but I do appreciate their buying me a pint (which won't break them - I'll be driving, so two is the absolute limit). Socialism is great for those who put in less than others and not so good for those who put in more...

I appreciate your points. However, it isn't impossible to split a PA into (roughly, but obviously not exact) equal shares. I've done it before, or rather a band I was in did. We did it in the way I described above. Obviously, you don't all go and buy a disparate/ill-matched pile of equipment and hope it works. You agree on the system you want and then purchase it between you, dividing the cost as equitably as is possible commensurate with owning parts of it individually. That's what we did. Some (I and one other) spent a little more than others, but it didn't bother me (or him), because I owned something of higher value which was mine to do as I wished with if/when I left, as did he. Why would you be upset if a band member "demanded payment" from you and why is it unreasonable to expect someone to pay to join a band.? You did, in effect, demand payment from the other members of the band when you fronted the cost of buying the PA you describe and they repaid you. To be clear, I think that was entirely reasonable of you and would have done the same in your position. Surely it depends on the circumstances. In the case of bands that work occasionally and don't earn a great deal, they are unlikely to be spending .serious money on PA, lights, etc. £20 a head each for a few months is no great loss. However, in a situation where you are offered a place in a successful working outfit which has significant jointly-owned assets, is it right to expect to benefit from something the others have paid for without making a contribution? Perhaps so if you are happy to be paid a wage, but if you want an equal share in the profits of the venture, it's right that you should make the same investment as the others have. If you join a company as an employee, you will earn a wage/salary, but if you wish to be a full partner and earn the same as the other partners/business owners, shouldn't you be prepared to invest in the venture to the same extent as them?

This is a tricky issue. Agreeing used values, depreciation and how much someone leaving will get back, etc is a minefield. I'd suggest it's better for members to buy different parts of the PA as individuals. You can normally divide things roughly equally (not exactly, but close enough). One owns the mixer, two others the FOH (a side each), another the monitors and so on. Anyone leaving takes their own part(s) with them to sell or re-use as they choose. Anyone joining then has to replace the item(s) the leaver took with them and owns the replacement(s). The band/joiner is free to offer to buy it from them if a price that suits everyone can be agreed. Repairs due to fair wear and tear would normally be equally split, but that depends on circumstances. If someone drops the mixing desk down their stairs at home or their kids jump on it and break it, it isn't reasonable to expect the others to pay, for example. As I said, tricky.

As you say you aren't keen on the material, I'd say definitely no. From their point of view, if you join and leave after a few months, they'll have to start from scratch, so it won't be doing them any favours. As far as "Any band is better than no band" goes, if you were parched and in the desert and someone offered you a glass of muddy water, you'd probably drink it...

Is this a ploy to get us to listen to the track/generate clicks?

Fusion gig bag and their DJ backpack for the head.

Opposing thumbs would be a good start.

Sorry. My bad. Should have been 明日は雨が降るかしら。

とは 意味・読み方・使い方

It's not raining in Tokyo