Mikey R

Evening all, Ive not got much to say about the specs for what Ive got planned, but Im kind of excited so had to write about it. Since not all that much is decided at the moment, I wont be giving out any details, but heres the background. Those who know me, know that Ive been thinking about putting together an old school lead / bass amplifier for a while, but Ive never really been able to kick myself into getting it started. However, reading about all the thermionic goodness that a few of our Basschat membership endulge in has been the catalyst to get me started. Ive been staring at schematics, reading everything I can find on the net, as well as Morgans excelent book, for long enough and I think I just need to take the plunge and get something underway, even if its only a platform for experimenting on. So, first up, I needed a pair of transformers. There are a few places that do them, a couple of guys wind transformers in the UK, and there are a few from overseas. The amp builders in the US tend to use Hammond transformers from Canada, surprisingly they are available in the UK for not too many beans. However, I wanted to use stuff locally made if possible, just for the mojo. Enter the infamous John Wood. Now, John Wood is an absolute audio guru - solid state or valve, he knows it all. I heard on Basschat that John winds transformers, so I got in contact. I was expecting a short "Yeah, Im after something like x," and "Ok, that'll cost you y," but John doesnt work that way. An hour long telephone call later, and my brain was totally expanded with all the knowledge he had transferred. I was making notes so fast, I can barely decypher what I'd written. And then he asked me, who I planned to get to wind the transformers. "You, I hope!" I replied, "but Ive got a few things to sort out first." We agreed I would call him back in the new year, which I did, and we put together a spec for what I was going to build, what I would need, and agreed a price. He's winding them right now, so with any luck I should have them soon. Ive got a few other projects on at the moment, so this is going to take a while, but I'll try and keep this build thread updated as I go along. EDIT: Ive finalised the specs, so here they are: Preamp: 2 x ECC83 with solid state EQ bass + treble, possibly a mid, possibly an effects loop Driver: 1 x ECC83 phase splitter,1 x ECC81 long tailed pair driver, 1 x ECC82 cathode follower (6550 are quite a heavy load to push) Power amp: 6 x 6550 Speaking with John, if I have 600V on the plates and 300V on the screens, then with three pairs of modern valves I should hit 200 watts bang on. I could hit 200 watts with two pairs, but with 400V on the screens, but this would be quite hard on the power valves and I think it would be less expensive in replacement and more prudent in the long term to be more gentle.

Did anyone find a venue for this in Leeds?

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1358636778' post='1942759'] Also... I've noticed an increasing tendency for people to shout instead of talking at a reasonable volume... why? [size=4]It's a noisy world, people.[/size] [/quote] Im pretty sure its all down to iPods. Until recently, I used to have an hours commute on the train every morning and evening, I started listening to music with decent headphones just to drown out the sound of every one elses iPods, and even then I could sometimes hear them over the quiet bits of my own music. The problem is only going to get worse. Being musicians, Im aware we're a bit more sensitive to what we can hear than the norms, but some of these poor people must have really damaged their hearing, hence the shouting.

As musicians, we are used to calling the attenuation on the input "gain" and the output "master" or "volume" - we've been calling them that for 40 years, we all know what they mean so lets keep on calling them that. There are good technical reasons for this, but they really dont matter since theres no need to redefine a language that works.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1358001512' post='1931639'] Designers like Barefaced have grasped the opportunities of new materials and cheap amplifier power. By using long throw speakers they can get more sound out of single drivers and they can get deeper bass without compression or exceeding the limits of speaker movement but the 'cost' is very good drivers, which are expensive, and long coils which are by their nature less efficient, This isn't a problem in a world where you can buy lots of watts for relatively little outlay. The big plus is a versatile sound and light weight. [/quote] From the Barefaced website, the basic Compact, which is a single speaker in a well designed box, has a sensitivity of 100dB - this is rediculously good, which means the cab is incredibly efficient. If Barefaced do have a rep of requiring lots of watts, it could be because people dont understand how it works. Just because the compact can handle a 600 watt amplifier, it doesnt need 600 watt. When Im at home, I run a 30 watt bedroom blaster head through my Compact and get tons of SPL. Just ask my neighbours. [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1358002888' post='1931669'] Indeed, its a tradeoff. Tone from preamp through super clean power amp: same tone at all volume levels - almost always more volume on tap without affecting tone should you require it. Tone from hard driven power amp: much lower power amp spec required but tone is dependent on volume. [/quote] And thats why I like the 30 watt Ashdown LB, by the time youre pushing the power valves, youre really starting to get some grit, but you can do that at a reasonable volume. Im planning sorting out a much larger amp for working with the full band, but in the mean time Ive got the Hartke. It will get the job done but with less style.

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1357213464' post='1919093'] You don't need an Italian supercar to do 150 miles an hour, but I'm guessing it's fun. Likewise, you don't need a massive fridge of a cab to be loud, but it's so much fun when you do. A lot of number crunchers forget this. From this viewpoint- more speakers. Interestingly, I also think the people you work with or play to judge the volume you play at with their eyes, ie they take one look at you squeezing through a door to a band call with a 410 on your chest and your face redder than a baboons arse and they think "the bass is too loud" before you've even plugged in. Turn up with the cab in one hand you can play the same volume and you can be complimented for being "sensitive!" In that respect (and it does earn you more money!) - more watts. [/quote] Putting it the other way, is there a danger of arriving with a 1x12, and the band leader thinks "this guy is never going to keep up"?

So is the problem here that people new to bass come to BC to get some tips, and come away with the impression that as well as practicing like hell, they also need to spend a load of money on a rig? That would be bad. I kinda see where youre coming from. I have seen a few threads where people have got half of the message, got a complicated and difficult to use rig that doesnt suit them, and are struggling to get it to work for them. My point is that [i]owning[/i] a rig that gives you that kind of control doesnt make you a good bassplayer. A good bassplayer, through experience and research, might have figured out how to build the rig they need and get the kinds of sounds they want from it. Personally, Im going through a bit of a gear head phase. Since joining BC, going to a few bashes and listening to some very interesting talks, Ive started experimenting with valve amps and compressors. This has improved my tone, and now that my kit can reproduce subtleties in what I play that were previously hidden, I play a little differently. This is a good thing.

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1357723154' post='1927107'] They may know what they want, but will they know how to get it? Often it is not until you actually try (and/or buy) a piece of equipment that you find out if it delivers what you thought it would. Which brings us back to the GAS again... You can read all the manufacturer's specs you like, but it's not until you actually use something that you find out if it is for you. [/quote] Exactly - the experience of different bits of kit, different instruments, different setups, is all built up over time. Thats what Im arguing is part of what makes a player better, as well as mastery of fingering and fretting technique. As to arguing over the percentage of each of the ingredients is important, youre going to get a different set of numbers from each bassist - that just the way it is, we all value different parts of the craft differently, and next year we may reevaluate our percentages. Cheers guys, an interesting discussion!

Im wondering if its worth getting a good di box for the pedal board just for that reason, giving the sound engineer something to plug an XLR into might win him over. If the di is derived from the power amp then thats not his worry.

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1357689848' post='1926971'] Great to violently agree! There is, and you are a right. I think, tbh, I was rebelling against the amount of posts, articles, opinions etc that are expressed regarding ash vs alder, how molecules in wood line up with resonances making older electric instruments sound better and people going to pains to have a bass in a less hardwearing finish all to achieve differences in tone I'm pretty sure will always escape me (and, frankly, I don't mind if they do). [/quote] Yeah, people tend to want to understand everything and assume that everything must be predictable, but the truth of instrument design is that nothing is predictable due to the explosive number of variables involved. If its a good instrument and you like playing it, play it. However, I think we all agree this wont guarantee greatness - you cant buy your way into being a better player. When you start out, a typical thought might be "if I got that amp or that stomp box then I could finally nail that line" when in fact to nail that line, you just need to play it again and again till you get it. You see this alot more with sports, where people buy kit to try to get an advantage, but its the same mental process that causes GAS. A better player will know what they want from their kit, that is the absolute extent of it.

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1357676161' post='1926628'] Is that why no-one has said that? [/quote] Sorry dude, that was the message I was getting - that tone is entirely in the fingers. I only wanted to say that gear choice is also important and is something a player can influence. [quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1357676161' post='1926628'] Shouldn't we be putting our efforts into playing our basses better rather than playing better basses? [/quote] Indeed we should. But music is one of those things you never stop learning. You can put effort into learning to play, if you want you can also put effort into learning how you like to set up your instruments, how to fettle them to get the sounds you want, how to stroke them to get other sounds, how you might want to mix up the combinations for musical effect. I think we're violently agreeing here. I dont know anything about cameras, but I guess there may be an aspect of getting the best results that is a combination of skill in setting up and skill in using the kit?

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1357643949' post='1925736'] So many factors. So many variables. But the biggest one is the player themselves (IMO of course!) [/quote] I agree - but for different reasons. It is the player who knows that he sounds better with [i]that[/i] compressor set in just [i]that[/i] way, which allows him to sit better in the mix, and allows him to concentrate on playing rather than being heard. Alot of people misunderstand the old phrase "A bad workman blames his tools." This doesnt mean that a good workman does good work with whatever tools he or she has to hand - it means a good workman will use the correct tools to get the job done to the desired quality. This may mean that the tools themselves need to be of a high enough quality and maintained to a level to achieve this goal. Saying that choosing and maintaining your kit isnt important is total rubbish. If you hired a carpenter to fix your shed, you wouldnt care if he turned up with rusty saws and used his hammer on his mortice chisel, but you would care if this meant he couldnt do a decent job on the shed. Billy Sheehan spends tons of time setting up his intruments so that he is able to play the way he plays.

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1357509759' post='1923887'] Yes, I think you're right that the instrument does indeed play a part but I don't think we'll work out how much it affects it, whether it's 50/50 or something different. However, if you're investing in good tone, the value is in investing in your fingers IMO. As my bass tutor said when I mentioned I was thinking of buying another bass "stop being silly, all you have to do is play your current one more". [/quote] If you have a bass you like playing, you will play it more. If its a nice one that cost you a bit of money to buy or if its and old beater that just suits you, it doesnt matter provided you play it. If you have an interest in kit, you'll want to explore that. Sure - learn to play till youre confident in your abilities, but then if you want to experiment then you should. EDIT: should also mention, I find this stuff goes around in cycles. When I started learning bass, I tried playing around with a few pedals. I bought a half decent bass to replace my beater a little later, ditched the pedals, got a Trace so I was loud enough to compete with the guitarist and was happy. The decent Bass Collection replaced bass #2 when I dropped it in the studio, and I was set up for the next decade. Now Im starting to play around with other bits of kit, just because thats what I want to do and because Ive only just realised the difference playing through different amps. Im sure in a few years time, I'll break it back down to one bass, one amp and just play it like that, but I would have learnt alot between now and then.

Its part of the story. However, after a fair few years playing bass, its fairly common for players to want to experiment with different bits of kit and see how it changes how they interact with the instrument. Sure, when I play I sound like me, but when I play through a decent valve compressor I sound a little more like me. Your choices of instruments, how you set them up, which ones you choose for which senario, which effects you use to achieve the tone necessary for that section of that song, as well as how you vary your picking technique during that section, are also part of the story. How big a part is up to you as a player.

The LB is a non-master volume type amp, so its difficult to get the preamp to [i]really[/i] grind without boosting the input. However, the tone of my p type bass direclty into it has enough grit to make me grin. If you play with a pedal board, you could easily put a clean boost as the last box in your chain and experiment with the effects loop. Whatever you end up doing, enjoy your experimenting

What was the low frequency cutoff of the Partridge transformers used in the old Hiwatt 200 and 400 models? Was it as low as 30Hz?

The real problem with modern Marshalls would be the output transformer. Whilst looking for transfoermers on the Internet for a project Ive been planning, I found a replacement transformer for the JCM900, which has a low frequency cutoff of 70Hz - now, I guess this matches whats you have in your JCM900, and this just wont give you a big thundering low end. Swapping out the cathode bypass and interstage coupling caps for larger values will only get you a little of the way to fixing the low end, the transformer will always limit you here. You might be able to replace the transformer, but at that point you will probably be better off getting a whole new amplifier with a bigger power transformer as well. The Ashdown Little Bastard is a really nice small bass amp.

Seriously dude, 15dB of bass and treble boost is ALOT. Its probably the eq circuits and not the valve that is distorting, explaining the nasty fuzzy sound. I would expect any bass amp to kick out a fair amount of actual bass at low volumes, at least try running it with flat eq before buying another amp.

Cheers dude, I would guess its kinda similar to a Marshall with master volume? Dont worry just yet, Ive got some experimenting to do before I get anywhere near that stage.

It sounds like youre trying to get a warm, slightly driven tone whilst being able to control the volume level. A less expensive way to get this might be to experiment with pedals rather than with amps. Something like one of the Sans Amp character pedals would warm up your old Laney, you can then use the Laneys master volume to set the level to suit either your practice room or the gig. If the Laney is still too loud, one option might be to just replace it with a smaller amp. Since your tone is coming from the Sans Amp, a simple cheap practice combo around 80 watts or so would probably do the trick. EDIT: Just thought, it might be a problem with EQ - how do you have the tone controls set? Did you start with them all at 12 o'clock, then adjust from there? Alot of people start with bass and treble full up and all the mids fully down (the evil smiley face), this tends to cause the bass guitar to disappear in the mix.

Yeah, it seems half the trick is separating the truth from the stuff that everyone heard from someone else, who heard it from a bloke at a gig, who read it on the internet somewhere... Cheers Oli, learning alot this holiday

Hi guys, sorry to keep banging on about this... Ive been reading a few threads and Ive been hearing how people value 'all valve' designs - is this just for mojo? If you put a solid state eq pedal in the effects loop, then youve instantly got yourself a hybrid, if you then build that eq into amp then you have something like the Mesa 400+ with the graphic EQ. Then theres the purist opinion that an all valve design shouldnt even use solid state diodes in the power supply, however valve rectifiers dont seem to suit the bass so well. As bass players, we seem to value things like the option for headroom, bandwidth and accurate tone controls, which are so much easier when you allow transistors into the design. Granted, the early hybrid amps were a little nasty, but with modern amps, is this 'all valve' thing just marketing?

Cheers V4! Youve got me hatching a plan...