Musicman20

[quote name='danweb22' timestamp='1343994965' post='1758352'] Build quality and finish is excellent, nice tight neck pocket and set up was great out of the box. I adjusted the action a smidge and got it really low with no buzzing! Well pleased [/quote] Excellent! After my bad experience trying to buy a second hand bass I'm itching to get something to replace it and a maple board 2012 P bass is on the cards...to match my 2009 Rosewood.

Love these new P basses. Bridges are excellent.

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343861713' post='1756669'] Going wildly off topic, on the way home from rehearsal this evening I stopped off to do some shopping and spotted these really tasty sticky iced buns. I've not bought one for years and years. Childhood even. Then I read this! It's a sign!!! Ermmm.. Of something... Or other,... [/quote] I had an iced bun today!

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343851531' post='1756420'] It should have ended at post #3. That's when the answer to the original question was given, most of what has been posted since has been silly catterwallering. Little wonder Alex seldom comes here any more. If one doesn't want the opinion of an expert in the field one should not ask the question to begin with. Unless they be trolling, of course. [/quote] Trolling only exists on Talkbass. I won't be caught into another daft argument over this, I was only stating my use of a fairly mid priced Ashdown cab that I don't own. It sounded great. I've just heard a recording that we did on digital camera and the bass sounds like me, magically enough. End of

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343845414' post='1756295'] Could you tell me what kind of spuds should be used with them; and have you got a graph of the wave the trajectory makes? [/quote] Is it better than a water pistol at chasing off cats?

Right, back on topic. Mods, feel free to mod away where necesary. There is no need for any arguments, lets keep it nice and clean. I didn't aim this at BF or Alex, it just happens those products fall into this category of 'new' cabinet designs along with the Fearfuls, etc. I am more than happy to hear the difference and be proved wrong. I am definitely not a stubborn person...I will always try things and seem how it works personally for me. Myself and Alex will resolve anything else via email. If it was indeed the Pro 3 that is to blame, then it's caused a lot of bother! I still like a quality 4x10, and I still like vertical aligned 2x10s, (I have two TC cabs like this). If there is a product that can match a 4x10 output, and ill be able to gig it and be happy with the finish, quality, and tone, (the weight is last on the list) then i'd be happy to try it.

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1343839718' post='1756160'] I've followed this thread and I have to say as a totally impartial bystander that I certainly don't interpret Alex's attitude in any of this to be 'offensive'! You may well not like Alex's cabs or Alex for all I know but IMHO Alex has stepped forward and taken his time to explain the science behind his views and opinions. [/quote] I'm quite happy for anyone to say whether they would or wouldn't be offended, but I have been singled out, and I feel a little aggrieved, so yes, not happy.

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1343841617' post='1756205'] I agree entirely. I'll even go further and say that there almost appears to be an agenda behind the thread. [/quote] Seriously? Thats like me saying 'there is an agenda behind your defence to BF'. If you aren;t party to it, you can't tell if you'd be offended. Alex barely visits Basschat, or barely posts, whichever, so its odd that his return is an argument.

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343839155' post='1756143'] But this is a genuine question and not a dig; do you usually discuss your clients' requirements, what they asked for, where they went wrong etc on a public forum? As I say, genuine, I'm not accusing you of blame, it may not be you that "started it". [/quote] I think my topic has wound a few people up.

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343838971' post='1756134'] I would love to see this discussion put in to action. I mean, maybe we should arrange a bass day type meeting with a set of cabinets of different configurations in a room with say a couple of amps and some source material - say, recordings of a Bass guitar that can be repeated for each test. THEN have some techie guinea pigs up front to describe and demonstrate these 'issues' accurately. We'd all be able to have a clear understanding of what these polar problems and phasing problems [b]sound[/b] like. Right? [/quote] Great idea, and thanks for saving the topic!

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343838674' post='1756125'] Pete, we have a one month trial period and we don't want to waste people's time or our own time selling them an inappropriate cab, or waste their money and our money shipping it back and forth. Our smaller cabs (unsurprisingly) can't handle certain bigger gigs in certain styles and ones without tweeters won't do certain tones etc etc. Our Super Twelve T does everything you'd expect a great 4x10" to do (but better in other ways). But if you're chasing smaller and lighter than we wouldn't want someone to end up with something that can't do what they want because they're pushing the envelope too far. This all seems much more of an emotional and psychological issue than an amplification one! For the record, we ran an offer last December which was a pre-Xmas offer and it was clearly stated as such. Gareth emailed me in February and again in May asking if we could repeat the that offer or do another discount. We don't do discounts or endorsements unless there's a really strong business case (like Flea saying "I want a cab!") because it wouldn't be fair to everyone else, many of whom are working bassists, who are paying full price. Others ask as well. I'm sorry I mentioned it, I'm just getting tired of hearing the same things over and over and over and over again from the same person! [/quote] ..I hate to say this, but this isn't doing your business much good. I did ask for the offer, I haven't denied that. You have implied something else though. You have started to become borderline offensive towards my opinions. I have avoided being offensive as it becomes ridiculous, plus, aren't we all a bit passed that?! Just think about exactly what you are discussing here. It was a simple topic, no need for anything else.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343836996' post='1756087'] The COMBINATION of your playing, your bass, the amp and the cab. And the strings come to that. That's why every time you email me asking if you can have a Compact for cheap, I email you back asking a whole bunch of questions like this: "What amp do you use? What cab(s) do you currently use? What do/don't you like about them? What music do you usually play? What kind of bass sounds are you into (links to youtube etc clips helpful)? What bass(es) do you play? What strings do you use and how new/old do you like them? What kind of gigs do you usually play?" It is all interactive! Last year someone persuaded me to sell them a Compact even though I said it was the wrong choice - and it came back. Nowadays people get the cab (or one of the cabs) that I say will suit or they don't get anything. There's no way I'd have suggested you gig with an SVT3 and a Compact doing the music you were doing back then, no way! [/quote] It is interactive. For the record, I actually asked if your offer was still on for the Compact. Mainly because I was starting to think that I should give it a try in the band I was in. I think the main problem is, people don't like being patronised, (which tends to be the approach that the guys who just cut and paste from the internet do). In addition, people don't like being told what is right and wrong when some of it is theory. They don't like being told their gear is wrong, when they've been happy with it for years. I KNEW this topic would turn into this. Half of the reason I started it was curiosity to see how it would divide people. Indeed, it has.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343836179' post='1756061'] I've told you a thousand times why. The amp wasn't powerful enough for your band, the tone of the amp and cab and your bass and your playing wasn't suitable for your band (bear in mind you said you were going to use it with a different and more powerful and less muddy amp but then didn't) and the only output that was loud enough to cut through the mix was down at the bottom. If you use an amp you don't like with one of our cabs then the cab is only going to show off why you don't like it! And if it's not very powerful then it's going to be even worse because you'll only hear the bits that are out of the range of the other instruments, i.e. below the guitars and in between kick drum hits. [/quote] My playing and my bass?! The same bass and style of playing I used in the same band for years?! That's not the issue. The headlining band swapped to an Ampeg 410, (not the HLF, the sealed version) and the punch came back, with the same amp, albeit not me on bass obviously. The amp should be more than enough for a small gig with PA support, so the power of the amp isn't much of a problem once you max the gain (a known issue with the amp) and just push it. There were a few bass players at the gig waiting to hear what the cab sounded like, as I told them it was super light and a new design for bassists, but even when I was twiddling with the amp and getting a tone, without a guitar or drummer playing, they still said it had a lot of low end, but no clarity. Again, I realise the amp isn't the best, but plenty of people use them. My technique and bass were not an issue (at that time, MIJ P Bass, steel strings, plectrum). I USED to be obsessed with clangy bright strings, not so much now, but at that gig, the strings were super bright.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343835971' post='1756054'] For those of you that don't think this stuff matters enough to be worth caring about when choosing a cab (or indeed designing one), what the hell are you doing wasting your time on a forum about bass amps?! [/quote] Original thread idea was discussing why a cheaper 4x10 still does the job.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343835765' post='1756046'] You've never been to a gig with bad sound, between the 60s and now? [/quote] I have, plenty of times, usually its because the band have a poor sound guy, or a rubbish PA. Then all I can hear is snare and guitar.

Here is another thing to add to the thread. When testing the Compact at a gig, (early version, but same 'spec' im guessing) why could I not hear myself? The band said 'well, there is bass and we can feel it, but we can't hear it'. I didn't like the amp, I admit, an Ampeg Pro 3 which wasn't mine, but the mids were boosted. I am quite heavy on mids if necessary, but we couldn't hear the bass notes. Just felt bass. Discuss! I am happy to be wrong, but I want to know exactly why!

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343833913' post='1755995'] Don't need much stage volume with good dispersion, the problem with those cabs is that they get turned up too loud because the audibility is poor off axis. The not having ears in knees syndrome. [/quote] I don't need much stage volume anyway. I've done gigs with an amp many a time and just used a Sansamp and the monitors. No problem. 4x10 on a table then? Surely that helps.

Six pages in less than 24 hours. Woah. Obviously a contentious area. Let's compare the high end products available. Bergantino HD410, (similar in many ways to the HS410) (£875.00) VS Barefaced Super 12 (Around £865.00 for the Vintage Cloth version incl. the current neo surcharge) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What is it about the Super 12 that outranks it over Jim's 4x10? Similar prices, both aiming at the high end boutique side of the market.

Surely, the soundman would PREFER to have the amps/cabs mic'd or DI'd, then use the PA to mix those with the vocals and drums? I know I would. Why? Because that much stage volume, (to cover what the PA would throw out) would be ridiculous, and would take the fun out of playing. Even with earplugs, which I use all the time, it'd be a nightmare.

[quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1343826605' post='1755837'] I totally agree but there seems to be a new breed of MM player emerging who can not wait to stick a JE in their newly acquired MM thus rendering it no longer an authentic sounding MM - kind of pointless perhaps but at least it is reversible. [/quote] True that, at least they can go back

At some point last year, maybe mid-May, I played a Charity event in aid of cancer sufferers. Not only did I have a fantastic time, and play to one of the most bizarre crowds I've ever come across, it was also one of my now ex-bands first proper outings. Very large stage, to what we were used to. Extremely professional soundman who deals with large DJ's and bands all over Europe, and we were second on the bill out of three. I got told there was no need to bring a rig, as there wouldn't be much need for a 60 min set and the fact we were supporting. This also helped with the transport. What did I use? The headlining bands Hartke 4x10 with a Hartke amp head. It was raised from the floor and next to me. This was when I was testing the boundaries of the good 'ol Sue Ryder P bass which was sold on. So, not high end gear, but a fantastic soundman. What did it sound like? Apparently, it was brilliant. I could hear everything, and so could the band. The bass was clear and distinct. The crowd loved it. It was a simple 4x10 setup. It proved to me, yet again, that no matter what you do, its all about the playing and the band. A tight band, with a good soundman, and even budget bass guitars sound great. I know a few people who won't play without 'their' gear. Our new drummer is a total gear head and won't use anything apart from his £4k drumkit, even for rehearsals. Me? If I got asked to pick up and fill in, or play, or whatever, i'll play whatever. As long as its not a ridiculous bass with 16 strings. The gigging world, and the crowds, want a good band, a tight band, and the vocals are 'it' when it comes to the covers scene.

[quote name='muttley' timestamp='1343816469' post='1755560'] OTOH, people upgrade such basses and keep the OE preamp gathering dust. Not because they want to return it to stock later, but more that they recognise that there is no market for OE pres, because every owner already has one... [/quote] Upgrading a Musicman pre? I'm sorry, but the main reason a Musicman bass losses value is due to mods.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343824501' post='1755780'] Said thinking obviously falls into the wishful category. [/quote] Nice...

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343821002' post='1755683'] I have opinions but I generally keep them to myself. Nowadays I try as much as possible to talk in facts and truth. It's a bit of an obsession of mine. It's one reason that I'm an engineer and one reason that I really can't stand the machination of both the political and legal system as they tend to revolve around opinions, presentation, precedent and so on. Unfortunately I can't think of a better solution to either system! [/quote] Ah. Well this could explain the differences in how we approach the subject. Law is my career, and it's taken me years, and a lot of money, to get to the end result. I wouldn't necessarily sit and debate it outside work, but it no doubt reflects on how I think. If you honestly do have a '4x10 cab killer', and it ticks the boxes, then I am still interested to know about it.