Musicman20

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343818969' post='1755607'] I'll never cease to be amazed by the modern human's ability to subdivide themselves into cliques of big-endians vs little-endians, or 4x10" vs 2x12", or flat vs coloured, or 29er vs 26er (MTB reference) or petrol vs diesel, or creationism vs evolution and so on. It's just silly. Jonathan Swift was satirising this folly back in 1726. We don't live in small tribes any more but most people still act like it! [/quote] Well I wouldn't be too amazed as you seem to be falling into the same category as me, eg having and opinion. Re: Music business and PA. I'll say it again, most gigs I play are with a PA. The bass is DI'ed or mic'd from the cab. The PA guy then arranges the mix.

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343819559' post='1755620'] I've played quite a lot of venues where there isn't room for a decent PA that could take some bass & had to rely on my gear to do the job & had good results. Flea wouldn't have a need to worry about his cab configuration (or even to have any cabs on stage) as the PA & foldback would do all is required. Unfortunately, not all of us on here have that luxury. [/quote] I've not played a gig for years without some sort of PA support where the rigs onstage are at a more realistic volume and the PA does the work. If I do play without a PA in the future, I'd be more concerned about how the mix is than the specifics of bass tone in every corner of the room.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343814974' post='1755517'] I'd have thought I'd have already said enough in my columns and on our website to get my view across and hopefully increase people's understanding of acoustics. No, this couldn't be further from the truth - like way way WAY wrong! We're talking about musical instruments here. Put a great tone into a rig with flat response and you get great tone out. Simple. The absolutely MASSIVE point being missed here is that so-called 'flat response' and good polar response are two completely different things. Our much-delayed '69er isn't designed to have anything like 'flat response', it's designed to sound like the original 8x10" cab. However, we've designed it so that it sounds like that original 8x10" cab in every point of the room, onstage, off to the side, right up close, way far away, as much as is possible. The original 8x10" cabs have awesome tone but you only get that tone if you stand in a small selection of spots, because the polar response is inconsistent. Whether or not you want colouration from your bass rig, good polar response is always a good thing. The only exception is if you like to use controllable feedback a la Hendrix - but that's a pretty niche requirement. Good polar response means your cab sounds more consistent from venue to venue. Poor polar response means that in acoustically dead rooms your cab will sound more dull than in an acoustically live room. So if you soundcheck and get the perfect tone without the audience present, once the room fills up your tone will be too dull and boomy. A cab with good polar response will sound much more consistent in different room acoustics because the direct sound is much more similar to the reflected sound. So to repeat the main point - good polar response does not equal flat response. You can't design a cab for flat response without also aiming for good polar response (otherwise you only get flat response if you stand in the right place) but you can design a cab to have a distinctively coloured tone and still have good polar response. [/quote] I never said flat response was the same, I was just chucking another comment in. I did however mistype on the iPhone and meant to type that I have read that the latest PA type bass cabs are copied off high end PA cabs, (this was in a fearful thread). Tweaked of course.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343813616' post='1755486'] The funny thing is, 99.9 % of the people on here wouldn't have thought anything about various speakers, designs, layouts whatever unless somebody else had planted that idea in their head. Seriously, how many people on here have gone to a gig and gone, yup, that bass players sound is really letting him down due to his use of XYZ speaker cab? [/quote] I agree entirely. All of a sudden we have 'experts' sniping and pulling people's posts apart just because they have been reading something through wikipedia. It's all well and good to protest you understand these things, but I very much doubt the intricacies matter in real life gigging. Next time I see RHCP or Jamiroquai I'll be sure to tweet them/email them and say 'hey guys you can't use a 4x10 or mix speakers cabs...the world might implode'. It doesn't matter, and more importantly the FOH will change your tone anyway no doubt.

Most sound men use the DI option anyway then change the bass how they see fit.

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343811010' post='1755451'] I like vinyl, but it's downside is it's easily scratched & it jumps when you try playing it in a moving car. I'm not saying 4x10s are rubbish. Far from it. But doesn't it make sense to have the knowledge about what a cab can & can't do & how well it projects across the audience (especially if your backline is your only sound source)? Ideally you'd just have a wall of 10" drivers taking up the full wall. Then there'd be no dispersion issues. [/quote] I don't think any of my gigs in the past 4-5 years or so, maybe even further back, have had no PA support. If they have no PA for the instruments and just use it for vocals it tends to sound messy anyway, no matter what cab you use. See, thing is, despite it's limitations, vinyl does sound great.

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343806160' post='1755363'] They endured cassette tapes for a long time too. But CDs are a better medium. [/quote] Vinyl.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343808314' post='1755404'] I love the fact there is always pages of this stuff on Basschat. If you spent more time playing with the gear that you have got, you'd find it easier to work round any short coming that you may or may not have in your gear. [/quote] Kinda where I was coming from, ish. Shortcomings or not, a good 4x10 works.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1343803147' post='1755330'] [size=6][sub]Some 15's certainly are as any pub band will likely show you... [/sub][/size] [size=6][sub]Also, some 15's are designed and sold as being room fillers which is a small gig mentality as you wont want to use that with a FOH P.A.[/sub][/size] [size=6][sub]The reason Ampeg fridges are popular on stage are twofold, IMV...1st, they are now iconic, and 2nd, they got that status because they did a job time and time again[/sub][/size] [size=6][sub]and so became pretty much the reference point for stage rigs.[/sub][/size] [size=6][sub]If you are playing stages... which might be the size of some pubs gig rooms.. you may or may not have a monitor mixer, but the last thig you want is a huge bass presense on that stage... that is what wedges and side fills are for ( if you need more sound and control ) ..so then it literaly become a bass monitor and Ampegs are good at putting out enough sound but not at boomy levels...[/sub][/size] [size=6][sub]so you hear it but don't flood bleed everywhere else..[/sub][/size] [size=6][sub]The sound engr likes this...[/sub][/size] [size=6][sub]So... yes..nothing wrong with 410's... they produce the levels but shouldn't get too bass heavy[/sub][/size] [size=6][sub]Like everything else...there are 410's and 410's tho...[/sub][/size] [/quote] Exactly. There are awful 4x10s around. Just like there are many cabs loaded with 15s that can be boomy which has led to what we perceive. This isn't the case with all 15s.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343784323' post='1755296'] I don't think you understand what dispersion is. [/quote] That wasnt related to dispersion, that was just a comment. I personally wouldn't assume what people do and do not understand. It's not exactly a difficult subject, I'm just entering into discussion over whether the rules of what is right and wrong matter so much. Again, it's a piece of music, it's just bass, it's art if you like. Maybe the imperfections are what makes 'a sound' seem right to certain listeners?! This surely gets some people over excited doesn't it!

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343777795' post='1755248'] Yeah, hence the 8x10 being much cheaper to design, because it was done by 1969. [/quote] True, but expensive design doesn't equate to perfection. Many products are perfect by sheer luck on the first few attempts. Or simply because they know how to get it right. Aren't most high end pa type bass cabs just basically copied off PA cabs and tweaked? I mean, is the perfect flat response tone even that interesting?!

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343776998' post='1755243'] Cheap to design, and to make compared to a well designed and made cab. [/quote] Once the cab is designed, that's it. Cost complete. The speakers and crossover etc might be more money but I for one would have an 8x10 or 4x12 in a heartbeat if I could transport it.

[quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1343772025' post='1755147'] I'm not sure if the design of 410's have a big problem. They're like 810's... an old design that still rocks. Too much hassle for me when I include stairs though. They also don't have very 'flat' performance - fine for most (in fact better) but the 3 way designs (Barefaced Big Twin, fEARful, Many PAs) are much better for some peoples needs... I wouldn't know. I'm not an expert. But I do suspect the retention of the 810's and 410's are more due to economy and tradition than new engineering and bass cab development that shows them to be the best. Maybe the best bang per buck - perhaps not at some price ranges... [/quote] The majority of bass players don't frequent forums, and they don't want a PA cab type response for their bass cab. They want a bass cab that gives them a tone and colour they like. Trust me, I've seen fads come and go. P basses sound like P basses through whatever you put it through. Surely an 8x10 isn't that cheap to make? I think the Ampeg 8x10 exists because players love the tone and it's a classic cab. It's the same as saying 'why does a p bass exist when a Dingwall could be used'. I like the fact choice exists, but I've heard a few players, who I respect, saying these new PA type cabs have a very very huge low end which they didn't like. I like vinyl. It's not perfect, but music isn't supposed to be. These are just a few views I have, sorry for the rant!

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343770045' post='1755084'] It doesn't work so well, that is the problem. Its a monitor that you can't hear in close proximity, which is a bad monitor, the tone that gets you your ears isn't what gets to the mic in front of it because your ears aren't at mic level. [/quote] It sounds good though...it sounds like my tone...my fingers/pick whatever. Surely DOOM bands dont give a crap and just turn up to 10?!

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343769380' post='1755065'] The problem is dispersion and thus its either on axis or off axis, depending on where your ears are when you eq. [/quote] I realise there are engineering 'no go's' when it comes to cabs, but why does the 4x10 work so well if dispersion is a problem? If you are gigging, its just a monitor usually. Giving you 'your tone' to your ears, then FOH can either take a mic to your cab and have the same tone, DI it post from your amp, or pre from your amp...so in the end it shouldn't matter.

I used a band rooms 4x10 tonight (some Ashdown model) and to be fair, despite the fact it was tatty, it sounded really punchy and the low mids had that nice push, without too much low end boom. Nice clarity, and plenty of volume. Why does everyone seem to suddenly shun 4x10s? We may well have been 'used' to the sound after years of them being available, but if it sounds great, where is the problem?

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1343767265' post='1755009'] @MM20 - it's an unlined I'd be looking for. And 3 band eq. And bloody hell 9 months? I've seen a civil servant sign a form quicker! CB [/quote] It should be 3-5. 4 is usual. I waited a long time for a Ray HH because the dealer didnt order it straight away...but I finally got it through GAK and it is SUPERB.

Some 4x10s are absolutely magnificant, despite their apparent 'deficits' when you discuss the science behind speakers and cabinets. Bergantino HS410 for a start. I'd take that over a fearful if they became available again.

Can you try two TC cabs at a store?

For anyone worried about the neck profile, IF its anything like the Musicman Sterling (USA) neck that is on the Sterling 4 and Big Al 4, it is a brilliant profile. Fender Jazz necks make my hands cramp a little, but I can deal with it. The neck on the Sterling (USA) is like a step between a Stingray and a Jazz...not TOO thin...and extremely fast. IMO, anyway.

[quote name='Commando Jack' timestamp='1343316625' post='1748879'] Jake seems to have it covered, but I couldn't get the link to land on the Keystudio i49, (btw surely it would have 49 keys) You have it spot on MM20 but the only thing I would say is make sure your audio interface (whether in a keyboard or separate) has outputs to send to the desk. Usually your DJ software will then let you cue/audition from the headphone out of the laptop. [/quote] Thanks! Had a good long think this weekend about which direction to go in, and as the bass I was going to buy brand new has come up second hand for a great price, Im going to start buying these DJ/recording bits and pieces in September when my new job and higher salary kick in. No time like the present! I'll keep updating this thread.

[quote name='GetYourFunkOut93' timestamp='1343588926' post='1752463'] Would it be better either two 210's or two 212's TC cabs? [/quote] Depends on your tone goals and space. Two RS212s WOULD sound 'bigger', but they are heavier and more awkward to carry.

PS - If you want somewhere to order from, check Martin @ Soundslive as they know their Musicman basses, as does Mark @ Bass Direct.