drTStingray

Team built Fender Custom Shop guitars, as I understand, are low volume, production line instruments with a level of manual selection and possibly input to assembly, such as materials - an example being the Pino Precision bass. Masterbuilt (put together by a craftsman) are a completely different and considerably higher price point - it's notable that many of the options on the Custom Shop build sheets for CS versions of standard guitars result in the guitar requiring to be a masterbuilt one (and thus into the much higher price range). Im not aware of the standard US Fender manufacturing offering hand selected or higher cost woods etc etc - they all look to be standard to me - they are simply assembled at volume in the US rather than in a lower labour cost region, and often being a slightly higher spec, than say a Mexican version - the team built CS is a step up from that, and the masterbuilt is assembled/ built/parts selected by a named craftsman. The lower volume manufacturers, like Musicman, PRS etc etc offer instruments (particularly guitars) which have a higher spec than the standard stuff produced by the big manufacturers - AIUI we are talking vastly different levels of production also. For some people here, and because Musicman and Rickenbacker, for instance, produce basses as iconic as Fender and Gibson, assume the prices should be on a par - however Fender, for instance, is in a much higher volume market which makes a big difference (and basses are a small proportion when compared to guitars). Thus comparing the prices in that way is really not valid as they are aiming at different market segments - but with obvious overlaps - in spite of this I agree some of the prices of these instruments are higher than I would like to see - anyone looked at the price of a new Rickenbacker recently?).

AFAIK Musicman has reduced production for Covid related reasons. The worldwide cost of shipping has also increased massively, along with delays. My only disagreement with your post really is comparing US Fender with Musicman - the truer comparison is with Fender US Custom Shop (team built) as that involves a similar level of manual input, and much of Musicman's guitar output is using figured maple, for instance, which may increase costs. I wasn't really talking build quality - although I agree Fender US has had improved quality for some while now. So have all the cheaper level instruments from non US production. I also like G and L (apart from not getting on with the MFD pickups) and have never really understood why such bargains are to be had with their instruments, especially second hand. I don't really understand how Fender could have had it's best year for sales last year (in a Global pandemic affecting production and some elements of shipping) from a supply angle unless the majority of instruments sold were either already with retailers, making them less affected as immediately, by current conditions or they, somehow are able to absorb more of the cost increase, production downturn (unless the manual input is minimal) and can respond to increased demand in the light of the issues mentioned. Otherwise it doesn't add up. We will just have to wait and see whether some brands have been able to insulate in the longer term, consumers from the pandemic and related (or in some cases not) issues affecting costs.

Aha - an SR5 prototype 😎 indeed like that!! 👍

It was a BFR - the Bass Direct price was actually two or three hundred lower than the Andertons price (they still had a couple of them advertised last time I looked).

The US Fenders truly are mass produced instruments - Musicman are more on a par with PRS, Rickenbacker or US Custom Shop Fenders (team built) - they certainly contain as much manual input and finishing and are not high volume in the Fender/Gibson sense - these really are the Fords of the instrument world. So you're really not comparing apples with apples and we all know that the prices of those types I've mentioned are actually on a par with one another. We also know that Fender's business model included parking vast quantities of instruments with retailers (indeed they would have to accept this to be dealers). Do we even know whether we've seen the true, 2021 Fender instrument prices in the UK or are we still talking sale of historic warehouse or dealer stock? Seeing all the other Covid related, supply chain related, shipping related issues (see other threads for people's problems getting items shipped to/from abroad, including the US), I'm not surprised prices have gone up - I'm not happy about it but that's the way it is - simple economics - short supply = higher prices. We'll just have to stump up more for these instruments in the future or do without them - and I won't be doing the latter!! PS the Stingray Special design was 2018 - whilst the 4 string is based on the 1976 design/ shape there are a vast number of differences - but retaining enough of the original design - so the sparkly colours are a different (in my view pretty good) set of colours on a three year old product. Sparkly coloured Stingrays first appeared around 2000, but weren't produced for long - and lamented by Stingray fans after - I think they listened to the market introducing them on the 2018 Stingray Specials (along with other more traditional colours).

You're right - BUT it's a different thing really - vintage just doesn't appeal greatly to me (I guess it's a bit like cars - there are those willing to take the big depreciation hit for the privilege of having a new car; those who always buy nearly new used to avoid that; those who buy what they can afford - and those who like classic cars and are willing to own one (to be clear I like them - in fact there are a couple of models id love to have but can't take on the responsibility of keeping them roadworthy and wouldn't be willing to use them as day to day transport)

Well if you ever change your mind.... 😀 the inca silver/black neck/pick guard combo looks great - strings through as well I'm guessing (even more sustain......oops what have I said 😂)!!

To indicate how far off piste you are with this, I found the attached invoice from 2010 the other day.... £700 for a new MM bass in 2010 would have been less than a new one in the early 90s so was an absolute bargain!!

I'm pretty sure there is a whole range of variables which affect the general sound of a particular bass guitar design (I too have noticed a slight difference with stainless steel frets - stainless steel strings definitely make a difference). Goimg back to the discussion a few posts back about rigidity of construction v resonance - my most resonance (perceived) is a natural ash Stingray 5 with a maple board - it is also the heaviest bass guitar I have - it's construction involves a six bolt neck joint and the body wood is covered with poly finish - the neck is finished with the finest coating of oil and wax finish (so is almost bare) with a thin matt coat of poly at the headstock. The construction is absolutely rock solid, yet acoustically the body of that bass is exceedingly resonant to the point you can feel the vibrations - if you hold the upper horn it resonates (vibrates) a lot - this is all acoustically. Plug it in and the tone and growl is fabulous - a number of other musicians (bassists and others) have commented on it - I have other similar basses which don't have this level of resonance or once plugged in, tone and growl (I believe the growl is partially coming from the resonance of the construction). Obviously basses which are neck through avoid the neck joint and may also behave differently as a result. I think the bass I've been talking about may just have a very resonant piece of body wood - I've attached a pic for reference...

There are warning notices in Halfords regarding supply issues on bikes. I know of people who've been waiting months to get hold of certain mid- upper end ones as no retailers have them and won't give delivery dates - a bit like some types of basses!!!

I think these new colours are great and if it wasn't for the fact I already have Stingray Specials in great colours I would be in the market for one of these, in spite of the current prices. They certainly aren't out of step with other low volume high end stuff (Rick, dare I say, Fender CS) - I think we have to remember the world's changed for the reasons mentioned - anyone tried to buy a bike (pedal type) recently? They can be very hard to come by - same with parts of firms like Ikea's range - you'll find some items are fine others not available. Covid has affected production - allegedly Fender had their best year for sales ever - one wonders if that was caused by people buying stuff that had been parked in retailer's warehouses for ages, unless Covid didn't affect them the same way it has everyone else - there certainly seem to be general supply chain issues and shipping issues for goods across the board. Im reminded I paid £375 for my brand new pre EB Stingray in 1980 - it'd be worth £2750+ now!! Used prices tend to reflect how quickly people want to sell. £800 is a daft price for a 1991 Stingray!! I also have a Bongo and I'm reminded it's sat in its case - I'd better get it out and put one of the Rays away !!! I have been mildly tempted by basses in the EBMM vault - notably the Joe Dart - if EBMM want to issue another Stingray variant in one of these posh colours with a graphite neck I would probably buy one - unless any Members here want to sell me one 😏 Has to be a factory variant though - I know of at least one @hiram.k.hackenbacker 👍😂 Conversely an artist series Tony Levin 5 string (or Pino fretless) if EBMM are planning anything like that!!

I wasn't expecting the 'My old man's a dustman' gag!! 😂

First @ped mentioned cake, but what do you guys think you're doing mentioning Jam Roly Poly Thankfully at least he's one person who's hearing is capable of hearing the difference between different types of wood - however I started a thread on this once before - does the type of rug ,,in use,, (on the floor) make a difference and which is best for (,,rock,,) 😀👍

I think it's wonderful so many of us can have such widely differing views - it makes for healthy debate - although as always, it's very obvious so many are wrong 😂 😬😧👍 A tone and wood related thing that's always really perplexed me - as some of you know, I've been around for a while and clearly remember people who should've known putting forward the view back in 1975 (and I'm really paraphrasing here) that an alder/rosewood combination from 1962 was that much better than a 5 yr old combination on the same instrument model - as a bit of a rebellious (almost) teenager I thought this was complete bo**ocks - I understand these days people say the same thing and I must say I still can't hear any vast difference (perhaps the electrical bits have deteriorated this giving a 'mellower' sound - however I understand the proponents now state it's because the wood has dried out etc etc. Not sure what the difference was in 1975 as such instruments were only 13 yrs old then!!! So I haven't changed my mind after all these years on this subject 😂😂 Now put a maple board and ash body on the same type of bass - yes I can hear the difference then!!!! Just a little anecdote to assist the naysayers 😏

@hiram.k.hackenbacker I think the original has a lot of 'revving up' type slides on it. Whats interesting is that even if the fills are punched in it is more than possible to reproduce this live without missing any of them - the bits of slapping and high unison fills with the brass all have a similar tone id say (however unless those brass parts were in place before the bass part was done - (and especially the high unison bit), you would think those bits were punched in). Conversely some of this could have been played and recorded live. Thanks for posting these @Bart Funk Bass - they're always really interesting. This one is played so much tidier than one or two of the late 70s/earlier 80s famous parts you've posted (notably Rock With You)!!

It sounds like one take to me as well. I think the playing is quite restrained as well. One of the rare occasions Mark Ronson had an up front role and mix for the bass guitar!! 😬

This is very interesting - on the album the bass sounds excellent - on this the actual sound is appalling IMHO. Sounds like a Precision with brand new round wound strings. Shows what can be done by world leading engineers and producers. It's also interesting in that this is a song I've played in the past and attempted to learn note for note - there are elements of the timing which are evident here which I didn't pick up on, but the isolated sound on this is nothing like I would have thought!!

Although the bassss probably originated in the 70s I think you need an Ibanez Musician and a single pick up Aria as well to be really early 80s - maybe a Jaydee Supernatural.

That's definitely one of several generic bass sounds!! V popular in US studios in the 60s leading to popular resurgence around the millennium - no doubt if they were the Dan Armstrong plexiglass version rather than the traditional alder/rosewood combination used in Motown they'd also sound identical 😬😉😂

You won't find many guitarists saying all guitars sound the same and it won't make any difference in the band mix. Arguably they would have a bigger reason than bass players for having impaired hearing (owing to exposure to higher frequencies) such that they wouldn't hear any difference. Different sounds in different musical instruments, be they saxophones, clarinets or bass guitars are all relatively marginal - however they obviously exist. In the case of the instruments being compared here there are obvious differences - particularly in the upper register. I'm surprised so few people in this thread can actually hear it, unless some are not letting on that they do. For me the following basses all have fundamentally differing sounds, one way or another:- Warwick Thumb; Wal Mk1; Musicman Stingray 5; Ibanez Musician; Fender Precision; Sadowsky NYC; Lakland 55/94 Electronics are only one element - the construction (including wood) are also a major component. You can also get any of those basses to sound 'generic' such that they all sound the same in a mix if you want to.

And there was me thinking it came out of the speaker cabinet (or iPhone or headphones - or studio grade whatever gizmo) 😬👍 However what is definitely the case here is the fast section of high register notes sound vastly different between certain of those basses (notably the rosewood/ maple and paduak/paduak are more defined and fuller sounding). I have concluded over the years that many bass players seem to make fundamentally incorrect assumptions on bass sounds - not sure why - here are a few pointers:- 1) It'll all sound the same in a band mix - WRONG - ever listened to Andy Fraser's sound in Free - the BBC sessions show some remarkable bass sound through an Orange amp and cab and a Gibson EB3. The only time it'll likely all sound the same is when it's mixed a la mid 1960s - when you couldn't hear the bass properly anyway unless it had a clicky pick tone. Listen to any rock band mix from the late 60s early 70s and yes you can hear the bass and it does sound different dependent on who's playing and what they're playing. 2) As if to reinforce 1) above I sat in my car earlier today eating a takeaway and with the radio on - modern chart music - mostly dance orientated type of thing - I was astonished that every song had prominent bass AND completely different bass playing style and sound - granted a couple were obviously keyboard but not all were - perhaps the music industry has woken up and rediscovered the usefulness of a decent prominent bass sound (that's not all sub rubbish)? I'm confident the wood in the construction can have quite a significant impact on overall tone/timbre. I know Fender have never used piezo pick ups on their solid bodied instruments but they do exist - many other manufacturers have and the sound from these is more reliant on overall resonance than say a magnetic pick up. The current fad for many people to play Jazz or Precision derived instruments (the latter notable generally only for a couple of distinct albeit iconic tones) might contribute to some rather narrow views on any subject to do with bass tone and how it's derived? It's as if many people's minds are closed to the vast variation in bass tone and style (and instrument types recorded on) over the last 50 years or so!!

You are right - IIRC Jet stated this somewhere in a long interview he did with Licorice Locking (who was actually his replacement bass player in the early 60s). It's probably somewhere on You Tube - I think he mentions the type of guitar also - some sort of Fender (maybe Strat or Tele). Yes - late 70s and 80s - a very good player (there are some great bass parts on recordings, both studio and live from that era). Mark Griffiths was the most recent, also a great player. Licorice Locking was replaced by John Rostill, also a great player, who went on to play in Tom Jones's band in Las Vegas - apparently the band was so good that Elvis had a conversation with Tom Jones about it. Elvis's late 60s LV band was equally sh*t hot - Tom Jones's band may have been part of the inspiration!! John Farrarr played bass with the Shadows In lieu of John Rostill, who passed away at the beginning of the 70s, and also shared bass duties in Marvin, Welch and Farrarr. He no doubt earned, and continues to earn copious royalties from songs he wrote for Grease, including You're the One that I Want!!

I love that tune - appeared on the radio (Light Programme) very regularly in the 60s alongside the occassional Beat record, Cilla, Lulu and Acker Bilk. The bass line is great and a perfect example of "The Knack" bass sound. I had thought it was duplicated with a double bass. This style was used in the US studios - Carol Kaye talks about using a "Dano bass" for the tic tac sound (which she sometimes played), whilst other musicians duplicated on "string bass" and "Fender bass" - so no doubt the Dano is a good means of getting the sound. As is a Stingray (particularly one fitted with mutes) where you can boost the bass on the EQ if needed. On left hand muting, I thought everyone did that as part of playing a bass guitar - you can control the level of muting with your fretting hand very effectively - unless it's just the way I learned to play/developed my bass playing style - I've always muted with both hands - dependent on the sound required!!

Jaco was very R and B (which is where funk and disco bass had its roots) - but River People has a disco style octaved bass part with hi hat sixteenths - pure disco!! Jaco appeared to be into sequencer style lines - also appeared in River People. Even Teen Town could be considered a sequencer-style line. The real big break for 'disco' was Saturday Night Fever - not only the singles and album but the film - but it was around in R and B style bands before that. An early example being Love Hangover, Diana Ross (octaved bass part; hi hat sixteenths).

Twin humbuckers all Colin on in both, or single bridge humbucker only. Plenty of Bernard Edwards style focussed, fat note thump!!