Alec

We'll all tell you to buy what we've got/like. Both amps will do a great job. In the end, only you can decide the one that works for you - and a lot of it might well come down to the look/features/form factor at least as much as the sound.

Ace - glad to hear it! It's always difficult to pitch at the right level. For some people, a Peavey PA would be a dream, others wouldn't dream of anything less than £1k per cab RCF etc. And then others would sneer at anything less than D&B Audioteknik or L'Acoustics at £££££. I had a sneaking feeling that the Altos might hit your price performance point, and still give the level you need, along with the portability. Thanks for coming back and reporting how you ended up. Must get to hear some of these Altos myself at some point...

And, of course, rather reminiscent of the Status Graphite Retroglide King Bass released a few years back to celebrate 25 years of Level 42. I would have linked to the product page on the [url="http://www.status-graphite.com"]Status Graphite website[/url], but it's frames based and nigh on impossible. Back to the Ashdown Streamliner, I too thought we'd given up on graphics on amps?

It does intrigue me. Like Wateroftyne, I'd be very tempted to file it under Variax, Line6, and all those other modelling people who offer the earth. That said, there are some tasty names who seem to use these boxes in anger... Is it me, or is it a fugly unit, though? And, why, oh why, does it have a jack speaker out rather than a speakon? Sheer madness these days!

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1420468077' post='2649618'] You heard the 745? Quite remarkable for a plastic box! [/quote] No, but I can imagine! Wasn't that impressed by the 725, really - only a little more bottom end extension than the 722, and nowhere near as nice on mids. You also have to bear in mind the size of the 15" 7 series - these things are the size of a small house!!!

RCF ART 3xx series vs 7xx series - an interesting comparison. For the 12" & 15" units, the 7 series blows the 3 series away hugely - not least in terms of weight. I replace a pair of ART 325 with ART 722 - *much* better. The 325 was surprisingly weak at the bottom end - the 722 was much stronger here and everywhere else. The only edge the 325 had was a *slight* amount more volume. With the 10s, though, it felt much closer. I've got 4 x ART 710, which are astonishing for their size and weight (note the current Mk 2 710s are over 2.5kg heavier, which is a shame). In the end, the 710s stole it, but it was close run. They had just a little more level, plus a little more bottom end than the 310s. Bizarrely, these 710s had a stronger sounding bottom end than the 325s - despite being under half the weight. (Can you tell, I've spend too long evaluating the different products in the RCF ART line...) It's a *big* price jump from the Alto TS110 to the ART 310, mind. If you were tempted to go that way, the extra for the ART 710 is probably worth it (though, if you could get the original 710s, you'd save on weight and lose nothing in performance). Unfortunately for you, the 710s and 310s seem to hold their second hand value very well.

The Altos are around £200, all the better 10" actives are £400 and up. Don't expect miracles, but do expect a reasonable bargain, based on all I've heard of them (from others). But do try them before you buy, or find a seller who will accept returns easily, just in case.

[quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1420383882' post='2648606'] I got an email from TC telling me that there was no difference in quality between the RH & New BH range only features . [/quote] That wouldn't surprise me (assuming you believe it). The difference in features is significant, but how much of an impact that has will be dependent on what matters to you.

It really is quite simple More money than sense: Radial J48 More sense than money: Orchid DI

Disclosure: I'm a happy RH450 user, and haven't come across the BH range in person. Defo, the RH range is more top end - adjustable frequencies on the 4 band EQ, more informative tuner, tubetone & comp controls on the amp, 3 presets, digital output (has anyone used that?), interface to a nicer (but pricey) footswitch. It also happens to look awesome - which will matter for some people! The BH range looks pretty capable these days. TonePrint sounds cool, but also looks cumbersome to configure. USB output could be more useful than the RH's digital output. Ultimately, look at the specs for each and then decide which has the features you'll value more - which will vary from person to person

OK, so aiming to be a bit more objective on what I'd recommend, based on the small pub stuff plus the larger venue engineering that I do. I'm very much on the active side. My own stock comprises RCF ART 722 and 710s. But I'd certainly happily consider the Yamaha DXRs (though personally, I'd spend more for the DSRs). Nothing wrong with QSCs either. And, if you're on a budget, the Alto Truesonics range is great punch for value. All good mid-range stuff. Mackie are OK, but have had enough turkeys to put me off, and Thump are a budget brand. It did finally make it into the thread, but a huge strong point of any decent active cab is the matching of the amplification to the drivers. So, you're bi-amped (separate amps for HF & LF drivers), with the crossover before the amps. And the crossover should be just right for the drivers in the cab. Better still, you should have protection built in making it (almost) impossible to kill anything. A decent passive rig can do all of this, but you'll need a separate speaker controller & double the amps if you're going to do the job properly - this typically drives the cost and budget very high - much higher than the equivalent active package. The "simplicity" of a passive setup for cabling is true, as long as your amps and controllers are all racked up together. Wheel in the rack and then it's a single cable to each speaker, rather than running power to every speaker. In a bigger venue, or for more serious touring, I certainly prefer this setup, but you're talking small pubs/clubs where the distances aren't great, so you've probably got mains close to each speaker anyway. And you could always improve your simplicity even more by getting/making mains/XLR combo cables if you really wanted. Don't underestimate how heavy an amp rack can become (unless you spend megabucks) - yes, you can put it on wheels, but then you're into van+ touring which I suspect you're not. For vocals only, especially if weight is an issue, I'd happily stick with decent 10" cabs. And don't expect them to be deficient in implied bass for all but kick & bass (which you're not using). I often consider the redundancy issue and like the fact that, at a pinch, you can drop back to using a single speaker. And, if your mixer fails, you can always plug a mic (dynamic mics only - no phantom power) directly into the speaker. So, for your setup, in the unlikely event of a mixer failure, you could have two of your 3 mics still active (one in each speaker) A big mixer amp? They tend to be a bit of a jack of all trades, and are typically nothing special. The Yamaha mixer amp you're looking at is a *lot* bigger (and heavier) than the little Behringer mixer you're using! Weight is the number one issue that would push me towards a 10" speaker. Plus the fact that decent contemporary speakers are no slouches in the 10" size. The original RCF ART 710s are only 11kg (think the 310s are about the same and are not that far behind the 710s), though the current mk 2 ART 710s are 14kg, as are the Yamaha DXR10s.

Radial Pro DI - passive, well respected, £80-85. Orchid Electronics - a hidden British gem reviewed [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may12/articles/orchid-di-boxes.htm"]here[/url] [url="http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/classic_DI.htm"]Classic DI[/url] - active, standard DI format, £36 inc postage [url="http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/micro.htm"]Micro DI[/url] - active, no through output (fine for what you want, no good if you wanted to feed straight from your bass to the PA, and then into the amp), £25 inc postage. Cheaper still - Studio Spares AR133 copy (does a decent job, £25), Behringer DI100 (common, OK, £20). But why pay that when you can get so much better for so little more.

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1412941702' post='2573484'] This does seem to be a British thing. I remember when Japanese were buying Sony, the Germans were buying Braun – we were buying Amstrad. [/quote] I think the Brits have grown up from this now - especially with the improved quality of overseas production. The worst culprits I see are the Americans who *really* want to buy home produced products, even when they're agricultural in their primitive design. So many sound forums are full of yanks who won't buy Behringer, say, as it's made in China, because Peavey/Mackie is so much better... Quite bizarre! Don't seem to have any issue with buying iPhones/iPads, mind....

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1412083425' post='2565444'] I had a pair of Genz neo 212s for a while and whilst they were excellent cabs the handles were prettly much useless... they were recessed into the sides at the top so they were intended for tilting it back to push it along on the wheels, but in practice the angles were all wrong. [/quote] Same here. Think these 2x12 cabs are too short to have any effective position for wheeling them along. That said, I'd rather stoop and wheel than carry, so the compromise works well for me. And I've got a trolley for any decent distances, which has the other benefit of carrying other stuff on top of the cab while wheeling. I can now do my rig plus PA/Mons/Mixer/Cables/everything in just 4 trips from the car. Makes me *very* happy!

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1408367582' post='2529439'] More important than the above though is placing the mic in the right place, the best mic in the workd can sound awful if it's in the wrong place! if it's pointing at the centre of the speaker cone it'll be very bright, move toward the edge and it will be dull. So it's a case of adjusting to taste really depending on your sound. Finding the sweet spot can be tricky, but once you have it though, put a square of tape around the head of the mic on the speaker grille so you'll know for next time And finally... Depending on where you play, and how accommodating the engineer is. If you ask for the bass to be mic'd up, they should generally have a suitable mic themselves. I rarely take my 421 on the road these days, which is why i have the DI. [/quote] +1 to position being critical. In all my years as an engineer, miking bass amps tends to require the most effort to get them to sound good. That's probably the biggest reason why I prefer to DI. And pretty much everyone we've had in expects to DI - very few have asked to be miked instead/as well. For this reason, I don't have any dedicated bass amp mics. While I carry some serious value mic stock (over £400 just in/on the kick) the need for bass just hasn't been there to justify it. And, typically, in our small venue, the bassist who insists on the cab being miked is likely to be so loud that it'd be a bit futile anyway... [quote name='Jenty' timestamp='1408356905' post='2529227'] But I wouldn't be letting another engineer mess with my expensive mics. [/quote] They'd hardly be messing with it. They'd be putting it on a stand and plugging it in. Many singers will bring their own, often *far* more expensive mics. If you have a mic that you're happy gets your sound, then you're doing everyone a favour by bringing it with you.

RCF kit - just ace! A while ago I did get to compare an ART 310 with my ART 710. Performance wise, not a huge difference, other than a little more bottom end in the 710. Never did try any of the ART 400 series, which were slightly lower power (and cheaper) than the 700 series. Looked like a good proposition, mind. Suspect they were discontinued when they brought out the D Line series. Interesting to hear some contrasting views from what I'd previously heard on the Yamaha DXR line. Though I've no experience of them. Yes to 10" monitors for small self-op PAs in compact venues. In decent sized venues, it's a different kettle of fish. Where I engineer regularly, it's very common to want kick & bass in wedges - for this, it's not really happening in sub 15" monitors. In the end, of course, money matters - which is why the Altos could win out for you. The RCFs and other higher end speakers will beat them, but will have cost you a whole lot more.

[quote name='andydye' timestamp='1406645840' post='2513386'] 10" over 12" I get your point matey, might try the 10" option first...oo how cheap are they from Maplin!! £180!!! is that right? [/quote] Looks like a bargain to me - just dive on in! And, as for size, if I wanted to monitor kick through it, I'd want a really beefy 15" unit which, even then, would be a bit wimpy. But for monitoring vox & acoustic... My ART 710s will fill a pretty big space!

[quote name='andydye' timestamp='1406643261' post='2513350']have you used the alto stuff laid down as a wedge monitor or would it need to be upright?[/quote] Not used the Alto stuff, but know quite a few who have - they're regarded as the bargain of the century. Not necessarily as good as the higher end models - especially in output, but stupic value for the money. Monitor angle mode looks fine. In fact better than on my ART 710s where it can get a little tight with the IEC & XLR connection. [quote name='andydye' timestamp='1406643261' post='2513350']I'd be tempted to try the ts112a as I like the leetle bit extra oomph you get with a slightly larger driver, bit warmer sounding too[/quote] Fair enough if it's for FOH, but for mons, it's far more about getting enough of it in your face!

If it's really only acoustic & vox, then a quality 10" cab is ample - in fact ideal, really. Smaller, lighter, cheaper - and has the response where you need it. I use RCF ART 700 series, which are superb. Surprisingly, the ART 710 (£400) is a tad cheaper than the DXR10 (£470) - light and very capable. 3.5kg lighter than the DXR10, which you may appreciate! At the absolute bargain end, but still well regarded, is the Alto TS110A (£220). A little down on max SPL, but quite likely to be enough for the job - and *cheap*!

But these days you just can't ignore that stupid dead weight. Loved my Trace, but nothing would ever make me go back to humping it around...

Another interesting way the internet has changed expectations is the availability and choice it provides, that few/any shops can match. Years back, a wander round Denmark Street would feel like a real treat, being able to see so much music gear in one place. A couple of years ago, I was down there, and it all felt deeply disappointing, with what seemed like such a limited range - though I think it was really more that they didn't have all the esoteric stuff that I enjoy browsing, that would almost always be special order. Yet, on the interweb, you can browse any amount of bass porn instantly... Some nostalgia in this thread, mind. GuitarGuitar is presumably the latest evolution of Bootleg music, which was my original childhood haunt back around 1980. I remember the early months when they were just in an upstairs room, before moving downstairs and then expanding in South St. And then Wunjo, is that what used to be the Bass Cellar in Denmark St? Bought my Status Empathy through them back around 1992 - haven't found the need to buy another bass since! And, am I right in thinking that the Bass Centre in Wapping is no more? I buy bass gear rarely. My recent amp purchases have been through Bass Direct, all transacted happily over the phone.

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1403726385' post='2485729'] I have to admit Pete, no I wasn`t, and no I don`t think they id. But the rig was miked, rather than DI`d, and whilst I know that PAs/soundmen will generate the sound required, it must be the sound that Bruce is famous for, so I can`t see him setting the amp to do something completely different, then getting the PA to alter it to what he wants out front. Having done a show with him, from recall the sound he had on the night I saw them was the same as his regular sound was in a studio. [/quote] With FTJ, Bruce's rig is miked plus DI from the bass and another from the head. His regular sound guy is obsessive about quality (the guitar cab is triple miked). And I can confirm from soundcheck that the bass rig sounds great by itself. I can also confirm that I'm quite happy to let others shift it... While we're on the subject - anyone seen FTJ on their acoustic tour? Not sure if it would work - but it does - you see the real soul released from their material. Check out [url="http://youtu.be/eCRpiDEOV5o"]Going Underground[/url]. (The small Ashdown combo was just for emergency use - the bass was 100% DId through a DBX DB12) And, I have to say the best DI feed I think I've ever received was from Derek Forbes (ex Simple Minds, now with Big Country). Completely flat through the PA it sounded so good I had to get him to kill his stage level for a minute as I couldn't believe I was getting such a tasty feed. Doesn't come across that much in this video of [url="http://youtu.be/kXJvm21DQ00"]Look Away[/url], but trust me - it sounded superb. It was a direct feed from the back of an Ashdown 900 head feeding an 8x10.

One word - endorsements!

Just buy a Powersoft K20: 18,000W bridged into 4Ω enough for you... Mind you, at around £6k a go, just think of what this rack cost....