BASS FEEDBACK FORUM/NETWORK

[cammymaxwellbass]

Just something I've been thinking about for a while:

How about a feedback network, maybe organised by area, where you attend someone's gig (guestlist maybe?) and afterwards have a pint and a friendly + constructive feedback of the performance?
While it's all very well playing several times week in, week out, and getting the (usually) drunk or unimaginative feedback of "that was brilliant" or something similar, it would be nice to have some thoughtful feedback from knowledgable bass players in the audience. We're all learning and that never stops so why not help each other out?!
Might be best to put up gigs on this topic, then if anyone's available or interested then PM each other, to avoid this getting cluttered and confusing. Or set up different ones for each area?
I'll start - I live in Glasgow and play every Friday night in the Butterfly and Pig on Bath st with my band The Fortunate Sons (www.fortunatesons.co.uk) between 8-9.30. Playing covers and original material. No entry fee its a pub so I'll buy you a pint!

Hope this catches on.
Cammy

[OldGit]

Good idea.
We can all do with a bit of helpful bass player feedback from an honest, sober, aware and knowledgeable friend

I do do this for bands if asked.
However a lot of the time the things that need improving are [i]whole band[/i] things.

Getting the prior agreement of the band, and then getting them to believe you and make the changes needed, can be almost impossible.
You also need to know the band objectives.

Somehow the big ego people (Singers and lead guitarists, usally) are the hardest to change. I wonder why

Without their prior agreement and desire to change you're likely to be met with "ah yeah we all know that but the singer won't listen" etc..
The band has to want to change .....

[cheddatom]

Bang on OG. The ammount of times i've told the bassist how bad the drummer was and he just says "nout I can do"...

[Beedster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='818931' date='Apr 26 2010, 09:52 AM']Good idea.
We can all do with a bit of helpful bass player feedback from an honest, sober, aware and knowledgeable friend

I do do this for bands if asked.
However a lot of the time the things that need improving are [i]whole band[/i] things.

Getting the prior agreement of the band, and then getting them to believe you and make the changes needed, can be almost impossible.
You also need to know the band objectives.

Somehow the big ego people (Singers and lead guitarists, usally) are the hardest to change. I wonder why

Without their prior agreement and desire to change you're likely to be met with "ah yeah we all know that but the singer won't listen" etc..
The band has to want to change .....[/quote]

Yep

And to be honest. I kinda know where I, and we, are going wrong, and I'm not sure it's always helpful having someone remind me.

And, it's rock 'n roll FFS, there's too much 'feedback' in the world, there's always some prat saying 'can I tell you where I think you can improve', usually with that self satisfied smile s/he learned on a PR course. I can see the bloke at the back of the gig with the clipboard already. If someone had told The Who, Stones, Feelgoods, Buzzcocks ........

Another rant out of the way

C

[thisnameistaken]

Most bands I go to see I can't hear the bass player anyway. They could be making balloon animals and it would sound just the same.

[OutToPlayJazz]

Just as long as it's friendly and impartial, I'd guess that's fine by me, although the last basschatter that I bumped into at a gig with my old rock trio rudely told me that I should use a pick and that I should eq some mids into my sound. He didn't politely suggest. He told me, LOL! Dickhead!

I'd be up for going to see some other basschatters' gigs and I'd promise to be nice.

Edited April 27, 2010 by OutToPlayJazz

[oldslapper]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='820549' date='Apr 27 2010, 12:48 PM']Most bands I go to see I can't hear the bass player anyway. They could be making balloon animals and it would sound just the same.[/quote]

You've seen me play then...! Great giraffe no?

[JTUK]

err..no, don't think so, AFAIAC.

Quite happy to natter etc...but all that is required is, sounds good, or the keys are too low, that sort of thing.
Don't want or need anything else. If we don't know what is wrong then we live or die by the trial of it all and nobody will come and see us
and by that time we will be bored sh*less and have moved on anyway.

If I go and see my mates band, I try to be complimentary and constructive if asked... but when people ask, all they really want is positives anyway.

It is only a gig and a snapshot anyway... and it needs to be fun and working. If some guy comes up and starts saying bla bla,... the first thing I'd think is...what are you on..?

Say something nice..like FINE... and then talk about something else.

[Beedster]

[quote name='JTUK' post='820631' date='Apr 27 2010, 01:49 PM']err..no, don't think so, AFAIAC.

Quite happy to natter etc...but all that is required is, sounds good, or the keys are too low, that sort of thing.
Don't want or need anything else. If we don't know what is wrong then we live or die by the trial of it all and nobody will come and see us
and by that time we will be bored sh*less and have moved on anyway.

If I go and see my mates band, I try to be complimentary and constructive if asked... but when people ask, all they really want is positives anyway.

It is only a gig and a snapshot anyway... and it needs to be fun and working. If some guy comes up and starts saying bla bla,... the first thing I'd think is...what are you on..?

Say something nice..like FINE... and then talk about something else.[/quote]

+1

I was in the pub the other night and a guy who had appeared at the table started with

"You're in that band.......... aren't you?"

His next line, five minutes later, was

"You know what's wrong with your band don't you?"

I went into auto-pilot and said "yes, I do, thank you" and, apart from giving him the impression I was an a**e, I got away with it, that is, without the inevitable "the drummer is too complex, and the lead guitar too loud, the singer needs to dress better and the bass player, well actually he was pretty good"

C

[Bilbo]

Interesting dilemma!

I actually like the idea in principle as I believe that one of the biggest barriers to musical development in the UK is the sycophantic pleasantries that we rely on to get by. If someone comes up to me after a gig and says something, I always do a critical check of their position. Are they informed? Are they sober? Where does their perspective come from? etc..

If Jakesabass, Major Minor, Doddy, daflewis, joncaulfield and a few others approached me and said 'you're rushing', 'your intonation is iffy' - I would take note and act accordingly. If tBBC said 'oi, dogbreath. Jazz sucks', I would ignore it. But, as I don''t know most people on here at all well, I would be hard pushed to know whether their perspectives were valid or not. I have heard one great guitar player (ex-GIT (US)) say to me 'fretless is dead, maaaan. Its so 70s'. What do I do with that? If Jeff Berlin says 'no metronome', where do I take that? A lot of it is subjective and loaded with people's conscious or unconscious agendas. Some criticism is about people not 'getting' what you are trying to do.

In my experience, the greatest learning is done when a player offers a suggestion not a criticism. Two people have previously changed my playing for the better in an instant: a drummer and a trumpet player. One by pointing out a tendency he had noticed over several gigs and the other by explaining the concept of playing 'ahead of the beat'. No bass player (outside of a teaching situation) has ever come up to me at a gig and given me anything I can use.

The best compliment I ever got was at a jam session where I played on one tune. A guy came up (never seen him before or since) and said, with a smile and a nod: 'I could see what you were doing' before walking away.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='820666' date='Apr 27 2010, 02:21 PM']Interesting dilemma!

I actually like the idea in principle as I believe that one of the biggest barriers to musical development in the UK is the sycophantic pleasantries that we rely on to get by. If someone comes up to me after a gig and says something, I always do a critical check of their position. Are they informed? Are they sober? Where does their perspective come from? etc..

If Jakesabass, Major Minor, Doddy, daflewis, joncaulfield and a few others approached me and said 'you're rushing', 'your intonation is iffy' - I would take note and act accordingly. If tBBC said 'oi, dogbreath. Jazz sucks', I would ignore it. But, as I don''t know most people on here at all well, I would be hard pushed to know whether their perspectives were valid or not. I have heard one great guitar player (ex-GIT (US)) say to me 'fretless is dead, maaaan. Its so 70s'. What do I do with that? If Jeff Berlin says 'no metronome', where do I take that? A lot of it is subjective and loaded with people's conscious or unconscious agendas. Some criticism is about people not 'getting' what you are trying to do.

In my experience, the greatest learning is done when a player offers a suggestion not a criticism. Two people have previously changed my playing for the better in an instant: a drummer and a trumpet player. One by pointing out a tendency he had noticed over several gigs and the other by explaining the concept of playing 'ahead of the beat'. No bass player (outside of a teaching situation) has ever come up to me at a gig and given me anything I can use.

The best compliment I ever got was at a jam session where I played on one tune. A guy came up (never seen him before or since) and said, with a smile and a nod: 'I could see what you were doing' before walking away.[/quote]

Good post

Agreed, lack of feedback is a barrier to musical development. Who gives it, when, how, to whom, and why, are the variables that influence the degree to which feedback is effective, and trust me, the person who gets all of those right is a genius and has better things to do of an evening than watch mediocre bass players.

This is why:

Who gives it: someone who is asked to on the basis of the trust the player and band have in him or her to be a reliable and impartial observer. Rarely a bloke you've never met before who you found ona forum. Also rarely a bloke who wants to give feedback to a fellow musician (does that make sense?)
When: not just after a gig when levels of emotion, self esteem and alcohol can be unfavourable. When the time is right, what teachers call the coaching opportunity.
To whom: the best person to make the evaluation may not be the best person to communicate it. I'm a great observer but as my band will confirm, a terrible communicator. Beedster feedback often takes the form "that's sh*t"
Why: tricky, why does a person feel the urge to tell someone else what they think of their performance. Again, the best reason is because they're been asked to. How often does this happen? Not very!

Fellow band members tend to satisfy most of the above for me. I also have two good mates who are excellent musicians and they also help out when asked. Critically none of them are bass players, who I often find way too bass-centric to offer any real help in a band situation. Critically also, they rarely say anything, I have to really push them, and even then they say little. Which is why we ask them.

C

[JTUK]

And don't you just love getting checked by the muso bore when there are far hotter people you want to talk to

At the moment, we are working on getting a lot of friends to attend as pubs/venues want people in their bar. If I have invited them up, I also want to go and chat to them..

I am not looking for too many compliments, I'll know what we are on that night anyway.
By the same token, if I am watching a band and have been there some time, I'll be liking them enough to stay.
I might talk to them and say great gtr sound or something but if they don't know me from adam..what the hell will it mean to them?

Who is to say our references are the same and have any relevance?
I say enjoy the music and the beer ..or not..!!!

In general, people will get bored if you don't say nice things about their music

[cheddatom]

I'd like criticism about my band(s). I don't think anyone's ever given me anything other than positive feedback, which is no good other than for an ego boost.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Beedster' post='820408' date='Apr 27 2010, 11:00 AM']Yep

And to be honest. I kinda know where I, and we, are going wrong, and I'm not sure it's always helpful having someone remind me.

And, it's rock 'n roll FFS, there's too much 'feedback' in the world, there's always some prat saying 'can I tell you where I think you can improve', usually with that self satisfied smile s/he learned on a PR course. I can see the bloke at the back of the gig with the clipboard already. If someone had told The Who, Stones, Feelgoods, Buzzcocks ........

Another rant out of the way

C[/quote]


Yup I have been that guy with the note book ...

But Chris, mate, what makes you think the Stones, Who, Beatles and Feelgoods didn't have people tell them what worked and what didn't?

The guitar smashing Pete Townshend accidentally started was being talked about in teh Melody Maker, filling halls with interested punters and getting them noticed. Likewise the mod clothes were a marketing gimmick By then their manager was filming shows...
Look how polite they are here



The Beatles look and performance was all crafted

The bands that did well did all that self-analysis and took on the good points others suggested that worked for them.
The thousands of also-rans fell by the wayside never to be heard of again. They could have done better had they analysed what the successful people were doing that they could emulate.

Lots of young bands are fooled into being crap by this idea that their heroes were just "being themselves" and that if they just "be themselves" they will be successful too.
The only reason they have heard of their heroes was because someone spotted the potential and coached and crafted them into a marketing opportunity. Sure it may have been someone in the band but it's just as likely have been a parent, manager or agent, standing at the back of the gig with a note pad (or these days, a video camera.

[Beedster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='820807' date='Apr 27 2010, 04:26 PM']Yup I have been that guy with the note book ...

But Chris, mate, what makes you think the Stones, Who, Beatles and Feelgoods didn't have people tell them what worked and what didn't?

The guitar smashing Pete Townshend accidentally started was being talked about in teh Melody Maker, filling halls with interested punters and getting them noticed. Likewise the mod clothes were a marketing gimmick By then their manager was filming shows...
Look how polite they are here



The Beatles look and performance was all crafted

The bands that did well did all that self-analysis and took on the good points others suggested that worked for them.
The thousands of also-rans fell by the wayside never to be heard of again. They could have done better had they analysed what the successful people were doing that they could emulate.

Lots of young bands are fooled into being crap by this idea that their heroes were just "being themselves" and that if they just "be themselves" they will be successful too.
The only reason they have heard of their heroes was because someone spotted the potential and coached and crafted them into a marketing opportunity. Sure it may have been someone in the band but it's just as likely have been a parent, manager or agent, standing at the back of the gig with a note pad (or these days, a video camera.[/quote]

LOL, I know my R'n'R history, and I've been around long enough to know how it works, or at least, how it works some of the time. The fact that people were telling them didn't mean they were listening, and your examples, as well you know, are selective in the extreme

You bring a clipboard to my gigs, you leave wearing it. Internally

Cheers

C

[OldGit]

Just read the rest of the thread.

I'd like to differentiate the types of feedback.

Unsolicited feedback just as you leave the stage is great if it's positive and comes from a nice person in a nice way. Suggestions on how things could be better are not a good idea. I don't do that. If I've been impressed with something about the band I may well say something but I never make negative criticisms of a band on the night, especially if they don't know me. After all I'm just some old git in the gig.


The sort of thing I do is pre-planned. It's looking to address a problem the band thinks it has.
The band is in agreement and is asking for feedback and help.

Before doing anything we discuss the objectives and what they may perceive as problems.

I watch them play live with this in mind and give feedback later at a meeting. Not a rehearsal. I'm a trainer and presenter so I know how to give feedback and how to work with a goup of people. It's a positive activity and usually involves chocolate biscuits but I try to avoid anyone getting drunk.

We come out of it with a plan, a timescale and a list of things to address and ways to address them. These are made by the band with my guidance.

If this sounds like an IT project than that's because they are very simular.

If you want results and changes then you have to say what you want and have a way to decide if you are getting it. Yup, that's measurable objectives....

Usually the band is stuck or, like my other consultancy, they know what the problem is but the band as a whole needs an outsider to say it rather than say it themselves and have internal relationship problems as a result.

Beedster asks:
[i]Why: tricky, why does a person feel the urge to tell someone else what they think of their performance. Again, the best reason is because they're been asked to. How often does this happen? Not very![/i]

Not often enough IMHO. And, ofcourse, there are very few people like me around who know what they are talking about, know how to do the analysis and communicate the results and ideas. Also not many experienced musicians give a sh1t about how well other bands do...

For me the short answer is I get a kick out of helping a band get to a higher stage of development. Just as I do with the band website stuff I do on here for members, and for free.

It's the same sort of thing.

So, playing near me? Get your band's agreement and give me a call.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Beedster' post='820816' date='Apr 27 2010, 04:36 PM']LOL, I know my R'n'R history, and I've been around long enough to know how it works, or at least, how it works some of the time. The fact that people were telling them didn't mean they were listening, and your examples, as well you know, are selective in the extreme

You bring a clipboard to my gigs, you leave wearing it. Internally

Cheers

C[/quote]


Fair enough

The lightbulb has to want to change ... (and need to, of course)

Edited April 27, 2010 by OldGit

[Beedster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='820843' date='Apr 27 2010, 04:54 PM']Just read the rest of the thread.

I'd like to differentiate the types of feedback.

Unsolicited feedback just as you leave the stage is great if it's positive and comes from a nice person in a nice way. Suggestions on how things could be better are not a good idea. I don't do that. If I've been impressed with something about the band I may well say something but I never make negative criticisms of a band on the night, especially if they don't know me. After all I'm just some old git in the gig.


The sort of thing I do is pre-planned. It's looking to address a problem the band thinks it has.
The band is in agreement and is asking for feedback and help.

Before doing anything we discuss the objectives and what they may perceive as problems.

I watch them play live with this in mind and give feedback later at a meeting. Not a rehearsal. I'm a trainer and presenter so I know how to give feedback and how to work with a goup of people. It's a positive activity and usually involves chocolate biscuits but I try to avoid anyone getting drunk.

We come out of it with a plan, a timescale and a list of things to address and ways to address them. These are made by the band with my guidance.

If this sounds like an IT project than that's because they are very simular.

If you want results and changes then you have to say what you want and have a way to decide if you are getting it. Yup, that's measurable objectives....

Usually the band is stuck or, like my other consultancy, they know what the problem is but the band as a whole needs an outsider to say it rather than say it themselves and have internal relationship problems as a result.

Beedster asks:
[i]Why: tricky, why does a person feel the urge to tell someone else what they think of their performance. Again, the best reason is because they're been asked to. How often does this happen? Not very![/i]

Not often enough IMHO. And, ofcourse, there are very few people like me around who know what they are talking about, know how to do the analysis and communicate the results and ideas. Also not many experienced musicians give a sh1t about how well other bands do...

For me the short answer is I get a kick out of helping a band get to a higher stage of development. Just as I do with the band website stuff I do on here for members, and for free.

It's the same sort of thing.

So, playing near me? Get your band's agreement and give me a call.[/quote]

Now that I agree with

[OldGit]

[quote name='Beedster' post='820848' date='Apr 27 2010, 04:56 PM']Now that I agree with [/quote]

Phew
I was thinking I'd have to sneak into your gigs

[Beedster]

[quote name='OldGit' post='820852' date='Apr 27 2010, 04:59 PM']Phew
I was thinking I'd have to sneak into your gigs [/quote]

Don't get me wrong mate, I'm all for progressing the band, but what has become increasingly evident is that those who offer advice rarely have much to offer, those who don't often do. I'm sure you and a few others are the exception, but having been involved in several 'peer review' exercises in my time, the idea of such things creeping into live music wholesale makes me want to stop playing. As someone said above, one of the best forms of peer review is punters; numbers, response, satisfaction etc. That's why I said we know where we are, low numbers of poorly satisfied punters. Do I mind? Do I f**k, 'cos I'm playing the music I love, the way I love to play it, and slowly, very slowly, the groove's coming together, and the band and the punters are getting it. We've picked up some good gigs now by sticking to what we set out to do and not listening to all the advice that many people have given us. OK, perhaps we could have been the new Take That. Personally, I'd rather eat my own scrotum

C

[thisnameistaken]

TBH my girlfriend's fairly good at giving feedback. She's worked sound and lighting in theatres before and done a fair bit of directing too.

I'm suspicious that she only says nice things about my singing, but for everything else she's a good critic.

[chrisd24]

Well i'm playing up in Doncaster on Friday night, if anyone wants to come and tell me how terrible i already know i am i'm up for that!

[OldGit]

[quote name='Beedster' post='820873' date='Apr 27 2010, 05:25 PM']Don't get me wrong mate, I'm all for progressing the band, but what has become increasingly evident is that those who offer advice rarely have much to offer, those who don't often do. I'm sure you and a few others are the exception, but having been involved in several 'peer review' exercises in my time, the idea of such things creeping into live music wholesale makes me want to stop playing. As someone said above, one of the best forms of peer review is punters; numbers, response, satisfaction etc. That's why I said we know where we are, low numbers of poorly satisfied punters. Do I mind? Do I f**k, 'cos I'm playing the music I love, the way I love to play it, and slowly, very slowly, the groove's coming together, and the band and the punters are getting it. We've picked up some good gigs now by sticking to what we set out to do and not listening to all the advice that many people have given us. OK, perhaps we could have been the new Take That. Personally, I'd rather eat my own scrotum

C[/quote]


It sounds like you are achieving what you want to at the pace you want to.
If the whole band is happy about that then you have no problems.

The problem with depending on punter reaction as a measure of how well you are doing is that you have no idea why the ones that don't come to see you don't come.

Edited April 27, 2010 by OldGit

[jezzaboy]

Playing a gig a few weeks ago, I noticed this guy staring at the band. I`m saying to meself, he`s a muso, I can tell by his look. He comes up at the break and says that whilst our choice of tunes are quite good, the drummer is crap and the sound from the pa needs more "mids".

Now, I have never met this guy, he doesn`t know me. We know the drummer ain`t that good but he`s a great guy and a mate and most of the time he does ok. Rather politley, he was told where to go

The last thing you need is some smarta*s telling you something you already know, especially if you don`t know the guy is.

Jez

[Beedster]

[quote name='jezzaboy' post='821011' date='Apr 27 2010, 07:17 PM']Playing a gig a few weeks ago, I noticed this guy staring at the band. I`m saying to meself, he`s a muso, I can tell by his look. He comes up at the break and says that whilst our choice of tunes are quite good, the drummer is crap and the sound from the pa needs more "mids".

Now, I have never met this guy, he doesn`t know me. We know the drummer ain`t that good but he`s a great guy and a mate and most of the time he does ok. Rather politley, he was told where to go

The last thing you need is some smarta*s telling you something you already know, especially if you don`t know the guy is.

Jez[/quote]

Think he was the guy I mentioned