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[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 15, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[EssentialTension]

I wouldn't rule out the 4th at all.

But how 'good' it's going to sound will depend on when in the bar you play the 4th, what note you are coming from, and what note you are going to.

[XB26354]

An 11th is a perfectly acceptable interval over any minor chord as there is no major 3rd to clash. The fourth or eleventh is one of the nicest notes you can play against a minor 7b5 chord too. It fits when using the whole-step/half-step diminished scale as well.
It generally works better as a passing note between chord tones over chords with a major 3rd as it is a little too dissonant if held against a chord for most ears.
If you use strong beat/weak beat (i.e., play a chordal tone on beats one and three and a scale or chromatic approach note on beats two and four) you'll soon get out of the habit of playing the fourth where it may not sound it's best.

Chordally speaking, as long as you voice the major 3rd above the fourth you can have both in a chord and it sounds quite nice, eg (on C)

C-F-G-B-E

If you hold the F over the chord and the piano/guitar player is hip to it you can have some nice open harmony:

F-C-G-E

It works better as a pedal point than holding an F over 2 bars of C7 however

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited February 15, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Sibob]

Something that Steve Lawson pointed out to me at my last lesson was is the concept of:

Is it right?
Is it good?

Obviously too different things that require subjective thought

Si

[51m0n]

[quote name='Sibob' post='702320' date='Jan 5 2010, 11:42 PM']Something that Steve Lawson pointed out to me at my last lesson was is the concept of:

Is it right?
Is it good?

Obviously too different things that require subjective thought

Si[/quote]

+1 Well put!

I know you are talking about a jazz perspective and that there are, if not rules, then definite guidelines about what should or should not be played against a given chord, but at the end of the day your ear is the judge, and if its working for you then you are probably fine using it like that.

I'm as far from a competent walking bassist as anyone who claims to be able to play a bass at all can be, but even I can hear a clunker when I drop one (which is most of the time )

[PaulWarning]

To much theory gets in the way of creativity, if it sounds good use it

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='PaulWarning' post='702839' date='Jan 6 2010, 02:05 PM']To much theory gets in the way of creativity, if it sounds good use it[/quote]
I've never known theory to get in the way of creativity. In fact I'd say some knowledge of theory improves the chances of creativity occurring.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='702963' date='Jan 6 2010, 03:40 PM']I've never known theory to get in the way of creativity. In fact I'd say some knowledge of theory improves the chances of creativity occurring.[/quote]


That's two sides of the same coin though innit. "Rules" can help formulate new ideas more quickly, but they can become dogma.

I argue with my girlfriend (grade 8 theory) that it's possible to play any note with any chord and make it sound harmonious. She argues till she's blue in the face that you can't - despite me repeatedly asking her to pick any note / chord, watch me play a run or melody which includes said incongruous note over that chord, and then tell me it sounds out of key when it doesn't.

But then, she don't know the blues

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='702991' date='Jan 6 2010, 03:53 PM']That's two sides of the same coin though innit. "Rules" can help formulate new ideas more quickly, [i][b]but they can become dogma[/b][/i].[/quote]
It can also become a dogma that theory limits creativity. There's a long thread on this [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=72005"]here[/url] - a thread that seems to re-happen every few weeks.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='702991' date='Jan 6 2010, 03:53 PM']I argue with my girlfriend (grade 8 theory) that it's possible to play any note with any chord and make it sound harmonious. She argues till she's blue in the face that you can't - despite me repeatedly asking her to pick any note / chord, watch me play a run or melody which includes said incongruous note over that chord, and then tell me it sounds out of key when it doesn't.

But then, she don't know the blues [/quote]
I don't see what the point is here - other than that your gf is making a mistake.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='703032' date='Jan 6 2010, 04:19 PM']It can also become a dogma that theory limits creativity. There's a long thread on this [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=72005"]here[/url] - a thread that seems to re-happen every few weeks.


I don't see what the point is here - other than that your gf is making a mistake.[/quote]


Aye, I know

My point is - she's theoried up her own arse. And that she can't be the only one in the world who is.

Also, the programmatic way she's been taught music and music theory DOES limit her creativity. In fact, musical "creativity" as I see it has been drummed completely out of her. She can't play a note other than by muscle memory or sight.

In other words, she can sight read piano to grade 7 but to her eternal chagrin (being a true cocken-ey) cannot play along with any Chas n' Dave.

Edited January 6, 2010 by bigjohn

[The Funk]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='702991' date='Jan 6 2010, 03:53 PM']I argue with my girlfriend (grade 8 theory) that it's possible to play any note with any chord and make it sound harmonious. She argues till she's blue in the face that you can't - despite me repeatedly asking her to pick any note / chord, watch me play a run or melody which includes said incongruous note over that chord, and then tell me it sounds out of key when it doesn't.

But then, she don't know the blues [/quote]

The problem is that she doesn't know [i]enough[/i] theory. If she doesn't know the blues, then that's a HUGE gap.

[macmellus]

Surely , if you're playing a walking bass line, then it's probably full of chromatic runs which could require a 4th note. Or have i got the wrong end?

Edited January 15, 2010 by macmellus

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='macmellus' post='714344' date='Jan 15 2010, 09:10 PM']Surely , if you're playing a walking bass line, then it's probably full of chromatic runs which could require a 4th note. Or have i got the wrong end? [/quote]
I'd say you've got the right end.