Key Signature

[Bottle]

Hi folks

Figured I'd post this here since I'm taking a greater interest in learning songs by ear and increasing my general knowledge of theory and technique.

I posted [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=71627"]this[/url] in the off topic thread, and thanks to Pete Young for working out the chords - ta muchly.

I now have a follow-up question regarding key signatures - how do you guys go about working out a key signature for piece you maybe only know from playing by ear? I was wondering because in the course of working on the song 'Helicopter' by The Feeling, and from the chords that Pete worked out for me, I was struggling to fit the song into a particular key. The best I can figure out is that it is in E-major with a minor 3rd (G) or that it's in E-minor with a major 7th (D#) - how does that stack up?

Thanks
Ian

[maxrossell]

Usually I work from the melody scale, not the chord progression.

[Bilbo]

Usually the last chord on the chart

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Bottle' post='695463' date='Dec 29 2009, 11:03 AM']Hi folks

Figured I'd post this here since I'm taking a greater interest in learning songs by ear and increasing my general knowledge of theory and technique.

I posted [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=71627"]this[/url] in the off topic thread, and thanks to Pete Young for working out the chords - ta muchly.

I now have a follow-up question regarding key signatures - how do you guys go about working out a key signature for piece you maybe only know from playing by ear? I was wondering because in the course of working on the song 'Helicopter' by The Feeling, and from the chords that Pete worked out for me, I was struggling to fit the song into a particular key. The best I can figure out is that it is in E-major with a minor 3rd (G) or that it's in E-minor with a major 7th (D#) - how does that stack up?

Thanks
Ian [/quote]

Hmm that suggests harmonic minor, it depends on the nature of the chords in use. I usually consider which is the predominant home key, (the most played major or minor chord in a piece)

As Bilbo suggests first and last chords are a good bet a lot of the time. The key signature is a less important piece of info than having a good aural sense of what notes in a scale you need to play to fit the piece. The theory becomes more important whan you want to describe what you are playing to others. I don't think many players think in keys and scales or even which notes.... more (in my estimation) sounds.

[pete.young]

Jakesbass is right , the melody is mostly based around the E harmonic minor scale.

Those were bass notes by the way, not chords - the D# - F# notes are over a B chord.

If you want to improve your ability to pick up songs by ear, I'd say the most important thing to work on is recognising intervals.

Key signatures seem to be out of fashion with a lot of modern arrangers - I'm seeing a lot of recent brass band stuff which is written in the same key throughout the piece but which modulates through several other keys, written with a lot of accidentals rather than a key change.

[Doddy]

Just as a quick aside-I get really annoyed when I'm busking a tune that i know and I'm told that its in
say,E ,and so start playing in that key,only to find that it's not,but that E is the first chord.
For example,if you are playing something simple like 'Autumn Leaves', and the guitarist calls it in
C minor. So you play the first chord -F minor-,only to find that C minor was the first chord and not
the key signature. It's actually in G minor.

Sorry to slightly derail the thread slightly.

[Bottle]

[quote name='pete.young' post='695681' date='Dec 29 2009, 04:09 PM']Jakesbass is right , the melody is mostly based around the E harmonic minor scale.

Those were bass notes by the way, not chords - the D# - F# notes are over a B chord.[/quote]
Aha!! Now that makes a lot more sense - I've also been reading the thread about chord names and what makes a 'first inversion' and 'second inversion'

[quote]If you want to improve your ability to pick up songs by ear, I'd say the most important thing to work on is recognising intervals.[/quote]
Thanks for the tip - I'm still learning to pick stuff by ear. I mostly start with a search on t'interweb for tabs or guitar chords and work from there.

[quote name='Doddy' post='695735' date='Dec 29 2009, 05:11 PM']Just as a quick aside-I get really annoyed when I'm busking a tune that i know and I'm told that its in
say,E ,and so start playing in that key,only to find that it's not,but that E is the first chord.
For example,if you are playing something simple like 'Autumn Leaves', and the guitarist calls it in
C minor. So you play the first chord -F minor-,only to find that C minor was the first chord and not
the key signature. It's actually in G minor.

Sorry to slightly derail the thread slightly.[/quote]
I feel your pain - had a new piece a few months back which we hadn't rehearsed, and I'd only listened to a couple of times - it's in the key of A, but the first chord is C#!!! Cue lots of head-scratching.

Thanks to everyone whose vaulted knowledge I've just plumbed

You guys are great
Ta, Ian

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Doddy' post='695735' date='Dec 29 2009, 05:11 PM']Just as a quick aside-I get really annoyed when I'm busking a tune that i know and I'm told that its in
say,E[/quote]
which illustrates my point about the need arising when communicating it to others.
[quote name='Doddy' post='695735' date='Dec 29 2009, 05:11 PM']Sorry to slightly derail the thread slightly.[/quote]
Not a derail at all I don't think, it's a real world example of why theoretical accuracy is important.

[Kirky]

As well as intervals, learn to listen for cadences. The key cadences are V-I, IV-I and I-V. II-V-I is also useful. As others have said, the first and/or last chord on the chart are usually pretty indicative.

A similar annoyance to me (albeit a pretty anal one) is when someone calls out "G sharp" when they really mean "A flat"!

Martin

[PURPOLARIS]

[quote name='Kirky' post='696091' date='Dec 30 2009, 07:41 AM']As well as intervals, learn to listen for cadences. The key cadences are V-I, IV-I and I-V. II-V-I is also useful. As others have said, the first and/or last chord on the chart are usually pretty indicative.

A similar annoyance to me (albeit a pretty anal one) is when someone calls out "G sharp" when they really mean "A flat"!

Martin[/quote]

Haha, yes I've been told before that the chord is B#, I think he might have meant C

[lowdown]

It helps to be thick skinned when busking,
When the Keyboard player sticks two fingers up at you...
He means in the key of 'D major'....
Not f**k off.


Garry

Edited December 30, 2009 by lowdown

[Ray]

[quote name='Kirky' post='696091' date='Dec 30 2009, 07:41 AM']A similar annoyance to me (albeit a pretty anal one) is when someone calls out "G sharp" when they really mean "A flat"![/quote]
[quote name='PURPOLARIS' post='696092' date='Dec 30 2009, 07:46 AM']Haha, yes I've been told before that the chord is B#, I think he might have meant C [/quote]
I remember from when I studied classical piano (a long time ago!) that there are certain situations where the use of G# instead of Ab and even B# instead of C is actually "correct".

I can't remember in what situation this would be used though. I may have dreamed it!

[Kirky]

It all depends on the key. If you're playing in the key of E flat major, the 4th is A flat, never G sharp. Of course its exactly the same notes aurally (enharmonic is the correct term), but I get irrationally annoyed when someone calls out G sharp immediately after saying E flat. Which probably explains my blood pressure problems.

[Doddy]

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' post='696092' date='Dec 30 2009, 07:46 AM']Haha, yes I've been told before that the chord is B#, I think he might have meant C [/quote]

He could have been right-depending on what key you were playing in.

[wulf]

An example of B# being the correct name would be if you needed to spell out a chord like E7#5. The fifth is B so that becomes B#. Watch out for Cb as well.

As far as key signature goes, dominant seventh chords (eg. A7) can be a good clue in a song that seems to be in a major key. There should only be one place that occurs in any given major key, the chord built on the fifth note of the scale. A lot of songs throw in dominant sevenths all over the place so this concept is far from infallible. However, it is often useful in jazz contexts, where you need clues to keep up with a shifting key centre(*).

Wulf

(*) ... until somebody decides to throw in chord substitutions and your A7 (signifying a key centre of D major) becomes something like Em7 / Eb7 / instead.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='wulf' post='700250' date='Jan 4 2010, 10:01 AM']An example of B# being the correct name would be if you needed to spell out a chord like E7#5. The fifth is B so that becomes B#. Watch out for Cb as well.

As far as key signature goes, dominant seventh chords (eg. A7) can be a good clue in a song that seems to be in a major key. There should only be one place that occurs in any given major key, the chord built on the fifth note of the scale. A lot of songs throw in dominant sevenths all over the place so this concept is far from infallible. However, it is often useful in jazz contexts, where you need clues to keep up with a shifting key centre(*).

Wulf

(*) ... until somebody decides to throw in chord substitutions and your A7 (signifying a key centre of D major) becomes something like Em7 / Eb7 / instead.[/quote]
While the NOTE B# is commonly used, the CHORD SYMBOL of B#is something of a rarity, although if you were, heaven forbid, in the key of G#, then of course a B#minor symbol would be quite correct. Most arrangers and composers on the lighter side of music would always write in Ab major rather than G# major, mainly for the sake of Bb and Eb blowers like saxes and trumpets who prefer the "flat" keys. If you wrote a passage in F# major for instance, this would put the Bb trumpets into G# major. Much better to write it in Gb major.

Taking your example of Eb7 being the substitution chord for A7, let's be clear:
Although the root notes are a tritone apart, these 2 chords are very similar, having 2 notes in common:
the 3rd of A7 is C# which can be thought of as Db, the 7th of Eb7.
the 7th of A7 is G which is also the 3rd of Eb7

Then if you make them flat 5 chords, they become exactly the same notes except the root note is swapped around.
Eb7 flat 5 = Eb G A Db ( the A should really be called a Bbb from a theoretical point of view as it is a Bb which has been flattened)
A7 flat 5 = A C#(Db) Eb G

Another way of looking at this:
If you add an A root to an Eb7 chord you get A7 b5 b9, where every note (except the root) has only a semitone interval to resolve to a note in the tonic chord.
Look at it on a keyboard - it makes more sense when you can see it.

Have a look at my Boot Camp Sessions 3 (flat 5s) and 5 (tritone etc) which may help to clarify some of this.

The Major