Basic Income for Artists

[tegs07]

10 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

You're absolutely bonkers.

 

Here are some stats: https://www.jrf.org.uk/uk-poverty-2025-the-essential-guide-to-understanding-poverty-in-the-uk#:~:text=More than 1 in 5,adult poverty stayed the same.

 

I'm just prepping for a board meeting at Citizens Advice and the stories of poverty we hear from the staff and volunteers are truly heartbreaking. I appreciate you like to act as an antagonist, but come on.

I think those of us who are fortunate enough to have bought property years ago or are lucky enough to have a council house can’t begin to understand how much of peoples wages are being eroded by rent/mortgage payments. For many (and this includes people who are well paid) the lions share of their income is gone before they even consider every day bills like utilities and food.

Edited 19 hours ago by tegs07

[Burns-bass]

2 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I think those of us who are fortunate enough to have bought property years ago or are lucky enough to have a council house can’t begin to understand how much of peoples wages are being eroded by rent/mortgage payments. For many (and this includes people who are well paid) the lions share of their income is gone before they even consider every day bills like utilities and food.

 

A lot of poverty is hidden, too. Poverty is vulnerability, isn't it?

 

Unless there's a collective acknowledgement that we live in an incredibly unfair society, we can't move on. (This happened at the end of the Victorian period and post both world wars). Since then, all Governments have effectively spent their terms taking things away from us while telling us they had no choice doing so.

[tegs07]

32 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

A lot of poverty is hidden, too. Poverty is vulnerability, isn't it?

 

Unless there's a collective acknowledgement that we live in an incredibly unfair society, we can't move on. (This happened at the end of the Victorian period and post both world wars). Since then, all Governments have effectively spent their terms taking things away from us while telling us they had no choice doing so.

True but I think it’s even deeper. Every time there is a liquidity crisis (one is brewing right now over the pond) the distorted Keynsian response is to open the pumps and flood the financial system with money (usually at minimum repayment rates). It’s then like the Gremlins with water scenes. It’s loaned out over and over again chasing scarce hard assets as the game is up. Nobody in their right mind (unless they are Warren Buffet who will stash it to buy distressed companies) will hoard the cash, I guess a few brave souls might start a business or keep their zombie one going. I would argue however that the majority of it ends up in assets and puts prices up across the board. The people doing this find many ways of not paying any tax so the Government have little choice but to cut services - again who in their right minds (other than pension funds obliged to buy the crud) is going to fund the government deficit by buying bonds that are going to pay a rubbish return as the currency loses purchasing power.

 

Yep I know. I know the dogs bark and the people are forced into caravans.

 

Edit: Gary Stephenson has a series coming out on Channel 4 soon which will be worth watching. I don’t 100% agree with everything he says but he is trying hard to make the case that change is crucial if we don’t want to see Victorian levels of poverty again. A big part of my preoccupation with this issue is I honestly think it’s a possibility we will end up with a system where people are either in Victorian levels of poverty or are effectively indentured servants leasing every thing from their financial overlords.

Edited 18 hours ago by tegs07

[prowla]

These "you earn more money than me so you can afford to pay more taxes" evangelists are so blinkered that they can't see the bigger picture.

In my case I've been helping my sons through uni and other things for the past however many years.

If the state or other circumstances took that off me then it would've been detrimental to them.

There's a saying that charity begins at home and, especially in these times, this is very true.

[peteb]

23 minutes ago, prowla said:

These "you earn more money than me so you can afford to pay more taxes" evangelists are so blinkered that they can't see the bigger picture.

In my case I've been helping my sons through uni and other things for the past however many years.

If the state or other circumstances took that off me then it would've been detrimental to them.

There's a saying that charity begins at home and, especially in these times, this is very true.

 

That's hardly the 'bigger picture', that's just your own personal small picture that you think is more important than that of other people. 

 

[Lozz196]

2 hours ago, tegs07 said:

I think those of us who are fortunate enough to have bought property years ago or are lucky enough to have a council house can’t begin to understand how much of peoples wages are being eroded by rent/mortgage payments. For many (and this includes people who are well paid) the lions share of their income is gone before they even consider every day bills like utilities and food.

Definitely, in Hemel Hempstead where I live there’s no way I could afford to buy on my salary now. And the cost of renting a one bedroom flat here would cost me 2/3 of my monthly take home. 

[tegs07]

Bristol is the same. It’s shocking and kind of links back to the original topic. Do artists need a basic income or does everyone deserve to live in a society where the purchasing power of their money isn’t eroding faster than the cost of assets, goods and services?

Apparently because of a basket of hair curlers, organic miso, a rice cooker and a bowler hat (or whatever shit is in the CPI this week) every thing is tickety boo and we are in the land of honey.

Edited 16 hours ago by tegs07

[peteb]

I live in Bradford, which I believe is one of the cheapest cities in the country to buy a house. Even so, we couldn't afford to live in the suburb where my wife has lived most of her life and where I went to school. Bear in mind that this is a pretty middling town, certainly not the poshest part of the district, and that we have a combined household income of around three times the average. 

 

[TimR]

So some people must have a lot of money. Around 64% of households do own a house.

 

Yes. It's unequal and getting worse, possibly. Maybe it gets better as you get older, it should, otherwise what's the point of saving and investing? 

 

Ironically if people's earnings were more equal, more people would be below the poverty line as it's a 'relative' measure. Ideally we are all pretty equal when 1 in 3 are in poverty. 

 

I guess it depends on your interpretation of my use of 'loads' - that's obviously relative as well. Loads more people are above the poverty line than below it.

 

None of this explains why people are staying at home and spending money on pizza and takeway and watching rubbish TV while surfing the internet.

 

 

[tegs07]

13 hours ago, TimR said:

So some people must have a lot of money. Around 64% of households do own a house.

 

Yes. It's unequal and getting worse, possibly. Maybe it gets better as you get older, it should, otherwise what's the point of saving and investing? 

 

Ironically if people's earnings were more equal, more people would be below the poverty line as it's a 'relative' measure. Ideally we are all pretty equal when 1 in 3 are in poverty. 

 

I guess it depends on your interpretation of my use of 'loads' - that's obviously relative as well. Loads more people are above the poverty line than below it.

 

None of this explains why people are staying at home and spending money on pizza and takeway and watching rubbish TV while surfing the internet.

 

 

I think you have lost me Tim. Sure there are plenty of people doing very well in this economy. There are some very wealthy people without a doubt. Broadly speaking though the general impression I get is that there is a high degree of uncertainty and even people on decent wages are cutting back a little. For those on the margins - the precariate, the rapid increase in accommodation costs have made life much much harder. This is Bristol in 2025 where my property has gone up by 150% in 20 years:

 

I am sure someone will tell me how rich I am. It’s my home. It makes no difference to me if it’s worth £50K* or £850K!!! The only people benefiting from this are banks, governments and increasingly hedge funds. The rest of us just want somewhere to live. Again yeah I go on a bit, but this is the reality of the way the financial system is structured. The relationship between debt, liquidity, yield curve control/quantative easing, deficit, bond markets and inflation are just dull words. That video is what they lead to and it’s going to happen again.

 

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/people-and-communities/vehicle-dwellers-in-bristol 

 

Edit: * This is not true. It makes a big difference. If it was £50K my stamp duty, interest payments to the bank over 15 years and undoubtedly soon whatever extra taxes I will be scalped for being a beneficiary/victim of money pumping.

Edited 2 hours ago by tegs07

[peteb]

1 hour ago, tegs07 said:

I think you have lost me Tim. Sure there are plenty of people doing very well in this economy. There are some very wealthy people without a doubt. Broadly speaking though the general impression I get is that there is a high degree of uncertainty and even people on decent wages are cutting back a little. For those on the margins - the precariate, the rapid increase in accommodation costs have made life much much harder. This is Bristol in 2025 where my property has gone up by 150% in 20 years:

 

I am sure someone will tell me how rich I am. It’s my home. It makes no difference to me if it’s worth £50K* or £850K!!! The only people benefiting from this are banks, governments and increasingly hedge funds. The rest of us just want somewhere to live. Again yeah I go on a bit, but this is the reality of the way the financial system is structured. The relationship between debt, liquidity, yield curve control/quantative easing, deficit, bond markets and inflation are just dull words. That video is what they lead to and it’s going to happen again.

 

https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/people-and-communities/vehicle-dwellers-in-bristol 

 

Edit: * This is not true. It makes a big difference. If it was £50K my stamp duty, interest payments to the bank over 15 years and undoubtedly soon whatever extra taxes I will be scalped for being a beneficiary/victim of money pumping.

 

There is certainly a lot of money still in this country, but the problem is that it is increasingly flowing from the middle class to the extremely rich. They are then using it to buy more and more assets, thereby pricing them out of the reach of ordinary people. Obviously, this is particularly important with housing. 

 

Add to this, an increasing problem with poverty. Twenty years ago, food banks were virtually unheard of by most people - now they seem to be ubiquitous, with certain sections of society reliant on them. 

 

What you say about house prices is evidently true. They make a lot of people feel rich, but you don't make money on the house you live in. At best, you just provide additional funds for the end-of-life care home you will probably end up in! 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by peteb

[TimR]

No one can afford to buy the house they're living in based on their salary. No one, orher than a few could.

 

I couldn't afford the house I live in now based on my salary at the time.

 

Mainly because of the housing ladder.

 

I bought a very small house in the late nineties on the back of the housing crash. I lived there for 20 years. The equity due to property price rise added to the equity from paying off the mortgage meant I only had to get another mortgage based on my salary.

 

I also have had salary increases due to promotions.

 

People also have inheritances.

 

When you look at people who live in expensive houses you are not seeing the last 20+ years of the work they have done to get there. They're not magically rich people who have suddenly found £500k behind the sofa or are all on £120k a year. 

 

There is a danger of labelling house owners as wealthy and taxing them, instead of looking at why companies who are making huge profits are getring away with low pay. And a higher minimum wage doesn't help if it's a blanket measure as it disprotionatly affects small struggling busunesses and disuades them from employing more people. 

 

However, there are lots of people living in big houses whose children have left, who are still working and are cash rich.

 

It's disengineous to generalise. 

 

The mode salary in the UK is £15k, the median £37k. This means that people on the Mode salaray are living in poverty. Technically anyone with a household income below £22k is living in poverty but most households with 2 incomes will be on 2x£15k. 

 

Although I don't know how much tax avoidance affects those below £15k and skews these figures I know plenty of people who only earn £12k a year but seem to have very luxurious lifestyles. 

[tegs07]

38 minutes ago, TimR said:

No one can afford to buy the house they're living in based on their salary. No one, orher than a few could.

 

I couldn't afford the house I live in now based on my salary at the time.

 

Mainly because of the housing ladder.

So what you are saying there is anyone relying on their income to get by in the world rather than their wealth (the sum total of the assets they own and possibly extract rent/revenue from) is going to struggle and this struggle is getting worse over time?

 

I would argue that the term ‘housing ladder’ is another way of saying ‘inflation resistant alternative to cash’ or a hedge against currency debasement. 

 

I don’t know why this is such a difficult concept for people to grasp. Those who are reliant on wages only get shafted by the current system * . It’s simple. Creating more money (wages) won’t make any difference. Replace the colander rather than try and fill it with more water.

 

Edit: This system is not capitalism. What we have lived through over the last couple of decades is not capitalism and it’s getting worse. The global south can see this and are retreating from it and creating a new system as I type while over here in the west we get more dystopian, more insular and more aggressive towards our allies and competitors.

 

Edited 36 minutes ago by tegs07

[peteb]

7 minutes ago, TimR said:

No one can afford to buy the house they're living in based on their salary. No one, orher than a few could.

 

I couldn't afford the house I live in now based on my salary at the time.

 

Mainly because of the housing ladder.

 

I bought a very small house in the late nineties on the back of the housing crash. I lived there for 20 years. The equity due to property price rise added to the equity from paying off the mortgage meant I only had to get another mortgage based on my salary.

 

I also have had salary increases due to promotions.

 

People also have inheritances.

 

When you look at people who live in expensive houses you are not seeing the last 20+ years of the work they have done to get there. They're not magically rich people who have suddenly found £500k behind the sofa or are all on £120k a year. 

 

There is a danger of labelling house owners as wealthy and taxing them, instead of looking at why companies who are making huge profits are getring away with low pay. And a higher minimum wage doesn't help if it's a blanket measure as it disprotionatly affects small struggling busunesses and disuades them from employing more people. 

 

However, there are lots of people living in big houses whose children have left, who are still working and are cash rich.

 

It's disengineous to generalise. 

 

The mode salary in the UK is £15k, the median £37k. This means that people on the Mode salaray are living in poverty. Technically anyone with a household income below £22k is living in poverty but most households with 2 incomes will be on 2x£15k. 

 

Although I don't know how much tax avoidance affects those below £15k and skews these figures I know plenty of people who only earn £12k a year but seem to have very luxurious lifestyles. 

 

You seem to completely miss the point! 

 

Yes, we all know how the housing ladder works, but what about those who for some reason haven't built up equity over the last 20 years? This is generally younger people trying to get on the property ladder, but can also affect other people, for example like me who earn decent money but had a chaotic personal circumstances in their 30s. The fact is that if you haven't been able to build up equity, can't get help from the Bank of Mum and Dad, don't have significant inheritances to come or are not otherwise independently wealthy then just putting a decent roof over your head is very difficult (if not impossible) and can leave you in very insecure circumstances. No wonder mental health issues are so common these days. 

 

No one is labelling house owners as wealthy and looking to tax them, quite the opposite. We need to help people afford a decent home against the backdrop of stagnant wages and a delinquent housing market. It is ridiculous that a person living on their own on the most common salary is condemned to living in poverty and that a couple living on twice that amount would have a very insecure lifestyle and struggle to bring up children. 

 

I agree with you about minimum wages and encouraging businesses to invest and employ more people, and yes, there are plenty of empty nesters who are worth a lot of money due to the value of their property, but may (or may not) be cash poor. The issue remains that wealth is flowing to the very rich, stagnant wages, the middle class is getting poorer and poverty is going up. It's not surprising that fewer people are going out to gigs, especially in the less affluent parts of the country! 

 

[tauzero]

19 hours ago, TimR said:

Look at the disposable income of the groups. 

 

https://equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk/

 

You do know that "disposable" means it's disposed on rent/mortgage, food, utility bills, etc, don't you?