A lost art. Trace elliot

[Stub Mandrel]

2 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

But if you had a big Trace Elliot instead - think how much per month you could save on your gym membership!

 

I have a 4x10 combo. Trouble is, my Orange Terror/GRbass cab suits blues rock and classic rock much better, so it's hard to work up enthusiasm for hauling it to a gig.

[ajkula66]

4 hours ago, peteb said:

 For me, SWR coming onto the market was the big step forward for bass amplification. 

 

 

Same here, which is why I still own a Studio 220 head. TE and SWR were the ultimate bass amps of the '80s, at least in my book.

 

My "perfect" amp collection misses a few gems...a TE of some kind - preferably a preamp - along with an old Acoustic, Lab Series L2/L4 and the original version of Dynacord Bass King.

 

Funds are really not the problem here since all of these are quite inexpensive nowadays, but storage is a major issue...

[LukeFRC]

7 hours ago, ajkula66 said:

My "perfect" amp collection misses a few gems...a TE of some kind - preferably a preamp - along with an old Acoustic, Lab Series L2/L4 and the original version of Dynacord Bass King.

you can still explore without massive weight or cost - I made this - it’s a clone of a L4 preamp -  it’s got a pretty awesome tone.

 

 

[prowla]

16 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I no longer believe this. I have heard and played through too many good class D amps.

The Trace Elliott mosfet power amps are good, solid designs but there's absolutely nothing special or innovative about them, they are very basic designs. A simple differential amp taking feedback from a push-pull ouput stage. 

All the 'Trace Magic' is in the preamp design and the fact that the output stages were genuinely powerful. Class D is ultra faithful to preamps and most have headroom and power way beyond Trace designs.

They may be simple (high-level) designs, but that can be a good thing.

And, of course, the selection/matching/tolerance of the components forms part of the specification/design of the amp.

So, apparently similar designs can differ in sound quite markedly.

The "power" thing is interesting and perhaps subjective, and may not be definitive in terms of perceived volume/loudness...

There's a saying that 10x the power = 2x the volume (all other aspects being the same); given that Trace Elliot amps are available in 500W (or more) and I've yet to see a 5kW power amp or bass cab, I'd suggest that the "way beyond" assertion is questionable.

There's also the question of how the "power" is measured: rms, peak, sustained, etc.

I remember in the past someone saying you couldn't run a Hi-Fi amp at full volume because it would distort; I said that just meant its spec was wrong and demonstrated my 15Wpc amp cranked up with no discernable degradation of sound.

In the real world, the last time I went out I took my Trace Elliot 300W amp and it sounded bloody good; I don't think I had the vol above 1/4.

I do have a couple of preamps (Ampreg & SWR) and a Class-D power amp in a 19" case, and keep meaning to give them a go.

However, I've also recently picked up an EBS Reidmar 250W and that's probably next on the list.

[Jack]

On 24/09/2025 at 13:52, SimonK said:

Ta-da!!

 

Vertical stacking, dispersion, comb filtering, etc. Doesn't matter that's still a rig that I'd use side by side lol. 

 

Awesome. 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 04/10/2025 at 09:01, prowla said:

They may be simple (high-level) designs, but that can be a good thing.

And, of course, the selection/matching/tolerance of the components forms part of the specification/design of the amp.

So, apparently similar designs can differ in sound quite markedly.

The "power" thing is interesting and perhaps subjective, and may not be definitive in terms of perceived volume/loudness...

There's a saying that 10x the power = 2x the volume (all other aspects being the same); given that Trace Elliot amps are available in 500W (or more) and I've yet to see a 5kW power amp or bass cab, I'd suggest that the "way beyond" assertion is questionable.

There's also the question of how the "power" is measured: rms, peak, sustained, etc.

I remember in the past someone saying you couldn't run a Hi-Fi amp at full volume because it would distort; I said that just meant its spec was wrong and demonstrated my 15Wpc amp cranked up with no discernable degradation of sound.

In the real world, the last time I went out I took my Trace Elliot 300W amp and it sounded bloody good; I don't think I had the vol above 1/4.

I do have a couple of preamps (Ampreg & SWR) and a Class-D power amp in a 19" case, and keep meaning to give them a go.

However, I've also recently picked up an EBS Reidmar 250W and that's probably next on the list.

 

I have a 300W 1100 combo,  plenty loud enough for any gig IMHO.

 

I also have a 500W Bass Terror through a GRBASS cab. I don't know how loud the modern rig is because it gets too loud for sanity if the master control is past 8 o'clock.

 

I'm not saying Traces don't deliver, but in my experience class D has no problems delivering the goods.

 

(And 500W RMS is lots more power more than 300W RMS, volume wise it's my very efficient cab that's making most of the difference).

 

 

[prowla]

49 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

I have a 300W 1100 combo,  plenty loud enough for any gig IMHO.

 

I also have a 500W Bass Terror through a GRBASS cab. I don't know how loud the modern rig is because it gets too loud for sanity if the master control is past 8 o'clock.

 

I'm not saying Traces don't deliver, but in my experience class D has no problems delivering the goods.

 

(And 500W RMS is lots more power more than 300W RMS, volume wise it's my very efficient cab that's making most of the difference).

 

500W is a bigger number than 300, that’s a fact. 
However, it’s only about 10% louder, through the same cab (assuming it can handle the power), as volume is logarithmic. 

So lots more power isn’t the whole story. 
But, as you say, the efficiency of the cab (and how many) are significant and it doesn’t matter anyway if your ears are already bleeding. 

[Sparky Mark]

9 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

And 500W RMS is lots more power more than 300W RMS, volume wise it's my very efficient cab that's making most of the difference.

It could also be worth considering the Total Harmonic Distortion level at both those stated RMS outputs. If the Trace output was increased so its THD matched the other amp, it may be closer to the 500 watts. (I wonder if an amplifier expert could comment please?).

[Downunderwonder]

A Trace 250w will pump out a sine at 250w without complaint. Your average 500w "RMS" class D will whimper quickly.

 

Full expression of transient peaks from your Trace watts is a wonderful thing.

[Stub Mandrel]

8 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

It could also be worth considering the Total Harmonic Distortion level at both those stated RMS outputs. If the Trace output was increased so its THD matched the other amp, it may be closer to the 500 watts. (I wonder if an amplifier expert could comment please?).

 

I doubt it. I've measured my TE at full power with an oscilloscope. I couldn't measure distortion but it was very lose to 300W into 4R. The rail to rail boltage is consistent with that too.

 

The THD on a class D is negligible. 

 

Obviously overdriving the preamps  on both amps would eke out more power. 

 

But it's a sterile discussion. The Trace only puts out less than 200W into the 4x10 with no extension cab, but is still ample for my needs.

 

My modern rig IS more powerful, but I dont actually need that extra power except on rare occasions (like playing on a football field with no pa support).

 

I'm not knocking TE, but I really think it's nonsense to say you need the old iron.

[Stub Mandrel]

3 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

A Trace 250w will pump out a sine at 250w without complaint. Your average 500w "RMS" class D will whimper quickly.

 

You obviously have no experience of a quality class D. 

 

Please believe me. I own and use both and it's bollocks to say the Trace has more heft.

Edited October 5 by Stub Mandrel

[Downunderwonder]

42 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

You obviously have no experience of a quality class D. 

 

Please believe me. I own and use both and it's bollocks to say the Trace has more heft.

Plenty of experience with 1000w and 800w class D. I haven't tried high volume sines as that would be bad for the cabinet.

 

I haven't been in a band trying to blow the doors out since before the revolution. The times I have given a 800w sone beans it didn't seem to be doing anything the Trace couldn't, except lighten the load.

[prowla]

(NB. Watts are "W".)

[snorkie635]

9 hours ago, Sparky Mark said:

It could also be worth considering the Total Harmonic Distortion level at both those stated RMS outputs. If the Trace output was increased so its THD matched the other amp, it may be closer to the 500 watts. (I wonder if an amplifier expert could comment please?).

Calling @Bill Fitzmaurice

[ajkula66]

On 04/10/2025 at 03:02, LukeFRC said:

you can still explore without massive weight or cost - I made this - it’s a clone of a L4 preamp -  it’s got a pretty awesome tone.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure it sounds great...however...

 

DIY stuff has never been my cup of tea, since I'm a clumsy ox.

 

Secondly, at the prices that used L2/L4 heads show up in this neck of the woods it wouldn't necessarily be a cheaper solution...since I'd have to get someone else to make it for me.

 

I'll eventually find space for one...somehow. Soon enough.

[Chris Hales]

On 05/10/2025 at 23:23, Sparky Mark said:

It could also be worth considering the Total Harmonic Distortion level at both those stated RMS outputs. If the Trace output was increased so its THD matched the other amp, it may be closer to the 500 watts. (I wonder if an amplifier expert could comment please?).

I'd not call myself an expert, but I can offer a bit of insight here.

There's not a lot of standardisation regarding how amplifier power is measured.  Some spec sheets will state "at the onset of clipping", others will define it at 0.1% THD others at 1%.  The fact of the matter is, once you're starting to clip the THD rises very quickly, so there's not much difference in the measured power whether it's quoted at 0.1% or 1% - certainly not enough to account for the discrepancy between 300W and 500W.  

Something that really confuses the issue is that volume controls are not calibrated, so you have no idea where clipping is.  To make matters worse the control law of volume controls vary a lot, too.  Even if the gain of two amplifiers is the same with their volume control maxed out, their gain at 50% might still be wildly different.  (When I worked at HH, it was believed that our midlands based rival were "cheating" by using linear rather than logarithmic volume contols.  At low volume settings these give much more gain than logarithmic controls and it's easy to mistake this for being louder or more powerful!)

Then we have the sensitivity of speaker cabs which vary wildly and this can have a huge effect on the actual acoustic power that's being generated.

Which is to say it's all very complicated and unless you can calibrate the gain of everything any subjective comparisons of "power" or "volume" are pretty meaningless.  That's not to say anyone is wrong about whatever their favourite amp/cabinet is, just that any comparisons with another bit of kit in terms of volume may not be very valid.   (In the Hi-Fi world it's generally reckoned that you need to gain match to within 0.1dB to make any valid sound quality comparisons.  0.1dB is the difference between 100W and 103W!)

Hope this is of interest and maybe even help, too!

[Stub Mandrel]

30 minutes ago, Chris Hales said:

There's not a lot of standardisation regarding how amplifier power is measured.  Some spec sheets will state "at the onset of clipping", others will define it at 0.1% THD others at 1%.

 

Or 10%.

 

Historically, Marshall used 'flat out overdriven' for their valve amps.