A.C . LG5

[greyparrot]

HI all,

I was reading the review of the AC LG5 in the latest bass mag (while lying in the sun on my hamock!!) And it really is a great review. All the parts are hand made, and the bass is made from old sourced wood. Basically its a modern hand made vintage bass. Priced at £4200 Do you think that this bass can be worth that vast amount of cash? Of course all hand made basses are expensive, but this is really expensive! im also aware that they can be alot more than this as well. I realise that whom ever buys this bass would be paying the maker for the time it took to build, and the build quaslity and woods, but all told, seperate the time from the bass, how much is it really worth?? Im not disputing the price or build quality what so ever, but £1500 would proberbly get you the same standard of bass in terms of sound feel and looks i would have thought? I mean a Sandberg or a sadowsky etc would be just as well made, and sound pretty good, if not as good.

Where is all the rest of the cash on this bass? Would you pay it if you had £4300 spare funds? would you buy a real vintage bass for a third of the price over this knowing they will retain their value, and not half the moment you part with the cash? Do basses seem better and more desierable because of their huge price tag? Any boutique basses i have ever owened seem great at first, but after they are just like any other decent bass, and the ding factor seems to take over so it stays at home, and the player comes out to work.


GP.

[Marlat]

[quote name='greyparrot' post='503636' date='Jun 2 2009, 11:44 AM']HI all,

I was reading the review of the AC LG5 in the latest bass mag (while lying in the sun on my hamock!!) And it really is a great review. All the parts are hand made, and the bass is made from old sourced wood. Basically its a modern hand made vintage bass. Priced at £4200 Do you think that this bass can be worth that vast amount of cash? Of course all hand made basses are expensive, but this is really expensive! im also aware that they can be alot more than this as well. I realise that whom ever buys this bass would be paying the maker for the time it took to build, and the build quaslity and woods, but all told, seperate the time from the bass, how much is it really worth?? Im not disputing the price or build quality what so ever, but £1500 would proberbly get you the same standard of bass in terms of sound feel and looks i would have thought? I mean a Sandberg or a sadowsky etc would be just as well made, and sound pretty good, if not as good.

Where is all the rest of the cash on this bass? Would you pay it if you had £4300 spare funds? would you buy a real vintage bass for a third of the price over this knowing they will retain their value, and not half the moment you part with the cash? Do basses seem better and more desierable because of their huge price tag? Any boutique basses i have ever owened seem great at first, but after they are just like any other decent bass, and the ding factor seems to take over so it stays at home, and the player comes out to work.


GP.[/quote]

Its supply and demand. Jimmy Coppolo makes only a small number of highly desirable basses a year and charges what the market will bear. It may not be worth it to you, but it defintely is to Jimmy's customers because there is a 1 year wait for his basses. Sadowsky is the same, but at a marginaly lower price bracket (around $4000USD for Sadowsky vs about $4500 for a AC). £4200 is ridiculous because you can get it directly from the US for less than that. You can pick up a nice used AC on TB for between $3000-3800 that will be in pristine condition.

With regard to whether another bass may do the same job? Sure, you can probably find another bass that sounds similar to an AC (or a Sadowsky, or an MTD or a Smith or a Fodera), but if you eally want an AC or [insert brand here], then no "poor man's [insert brand name here]" will do it for you. I have a Sadowsky and an MTD and I haven't found any other basses I could substitute for them in terms of play and feel. A US Fender Jazz is a nice bass and would probably work in 99% of situations 99% as well as my Sadowsky, but its not a Sadowsky and it won't feel the same to me. That is what is important. If its importnat enough to you to have a AC, then there is only one way to get one and that is to pay the market price. That applies for any brand.

There is no point asking "where is the extra cost". The extra cost is simply the cost of entry to the club. If you don't see the value in it (however you want to justify that value), then its not the right "club" for you to join. That's cool. For me Alembic and Fodera are clubs I am not keen on joining for that very reason, but I have bought basses that cost just as much. Each to their own.

[greyparrot]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='503652' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:05 PM']Its supply and demand. Jimmy Coppolo makes only a small number of highly desirable basses a year and charges what the market will bear. It may not be worth it to you, but it defintely is to Jimmy's customers because there is a 1 year wait for his basses. Sadowsky is the same, but at a marginaly lower price bracket (around $4000USD for Sadowsky vs about $4500 for a AC). £4200 is ridiculous because you can get it directly from the US for less than that. You can pick up a nice used AC on TB for between $3000-3800 that will be in pristine condition.

With regard to whether another bass may do the same job? Sure, you can probably find another bass that sounds similar to an AC (or a Sadowsky, or an MTD or a Smith or a Fodera), but if you eally want an AC or [insert brand here], then no "poor man's [insert brand name here]" will do it for you. I have a Sadowsky and an MTD and I haven't found any other basses I could substitute for them in terms of play and feel. A US Fender Jazz is a nice bass and would probably work in 99% of situations 99% as well as my Sadowsky, but its not a Sadowsky and it won't feel the same to me. That is what is important. If its importnat enough to you to have a AC, then there is only one way to get one and that is to pay the market price. That applies for any brand.

There is no point asking "where is the extra cost". The extra cost is simply the cost of entry to the club. If you don't see the value in it (however you want to justify that value), then its not the right "club" for you to join. That's cool. For me Alembic and Fodera are clubs I am not keen on joining for that very reason, but I have bought basses that cost just as much. Each to their own.[/quote]



I think the way you answered that is pretty much how i feel, your paying to be in the club, but another bass will do it! Like you i have a sadowsky (metro), and the tone is better than any botique bass i have heard, and as you say the fender will always cut the gig. I guess really we are talking about ''i have an AC'' what you got?, rather than the bass itself in terms of a working bass. If you say you can get one from the states at under £2500 i think this makes this bass much more sence than to pay the £4000 plus. Having ordered direct from the USA myself last week, the speed at which the deal can be done, and delived, it is not an issue for me anymore to look beyond the uk for the best deal. if this bass was around £2000 i would look to buy it as i have played it.

GP.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='503652' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:05 PM']There is no point asking "where is the extra cost". The extra cost is simply the cost of entry to the club. If you don't see the value in it (however you want to justify that value), then its not the right "club" for you to join. That's cool. For me Alembic and Fodera are clubs I am not keen on joining for that very reason, but I have bought basses that cost just as much. Each to their own.[/quote]

Unfortunately there is that aspect to bass pricing these days with the higher brands. Pricing on the base of brand status rather than the production costs of actual instrument is not something I personally agree with because it sets a precedent for other manufacturers and just makes us all the more cynical as consumers. But, given AC are low volume instruments, then let the market decide. We're all free agents and spend our money as we please and someone can appear to be a mug for spending over the odds as much as they can appear to be of good taste. It's a cunning pricing strategy for a luthier who doesn't want to end up like Chris Celinder or Jon Shuker with waiting lists years long.

For that money though, I could take lessons and learn to make the instruments myself from well seasoned wood, as some BCers have already.

[Marlat]

[quote name='greyparrot' post='503676' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:19 PM']I think the way you answered that is pretty much how i feel, your paying to be in the club, but another bass will do it! Like you i have a sadowsky (metro), and the tone is better than any botique bass i have heard, and as you say the fender will always cut the gig. I guess really we are talking about ''i have an AC'' what you got?, rather than the bass itself in terms of a working bass. If you say you can get one from the states at under £2500 i think this makes this bass much more sence than to pay the £4000 plus. Having ordered direct from the USA myself last week, the speed at which the deal can be done, and delived, it is not an issue for me anymore to look beyond the uk for the best deal. if this bass was around £2000 i would look to buy it as i have played it.

GP.[/quote]

I think a lot of the time people forget that you can enjoy things on many different levels. If the only reason to want a car was to get from A to B, we'd all be driving Fiat Panda's or Daiwoos or something. People get emotional attachments to objects beyond merely its function. The reality is that in 75%+ of all the musical applications you are likely to find yourself in, a well setup MIA Fender Jazz 4 or 5 would do the job just fine. Thats great, but I enjoy basses more than just functionally. I like to see the work of amazing lutheirs, ones who are at the forefront of innovation or design. I like to see the subtle changes in tone that can be achieved by different wood or pickup combinations. Would the audience ever be able to notice this either live or recorded? Probably not (unless they were a fellow bass-head), but I don't care. Its for me to enjoy and for me to spend my money on. You don't have to be Michael Schumacher to be able to enjoy a Ferrari. Sure, you might not be able to get to 100% of its potential, but if you can enjoy it and it brings you happiness then its worth it to you. I generally don't get invovled in these "is XYZ worth it" discussions for this very reason. No one can tell you where a bass is worth it to you because no one will know the myriad of things that go into determining the value of a bass for you. AC lets you have a DN fingerboard that is the same species and age as on vintage Fenders, but it costs $1500 extra. Would I pay that? No. That sort of cache isn't what rocks my boat. However, on a bass that I will post pics of soon (after I get it), the cost of the finish alone is more than the cost of a Sadowsky. Some might feel that isn't worth it. That doesn't matter, it's not their money that bought it.

[Marlat]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='503692' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:28 PM']Unfortunately there is that aspect to bass pricing these days with the higher brands. Pricing on the base of brand status rather than the production costs of actual instrument is not something I personally agree with because it sets a precedent for other manufacturers and just makes us all the more cynical as consumers. But, given AC are low volume instruments, then let the market decide. We're all free agents and spend our money as we please and someone can appear to be a mug for spending over the odds as much as they can appear to be of good taste. It's a cunning pricing strategy for a luthier who doesn't want to end up like Chris Celinder or Jon Shuker with waiting lists years long.[/quote]

I don't believe any instrument is priced solely based on the production costs of the actual instrument. That would be a recipe for failure. FWIW I am not sure that instruments are priced on "brand status" either, but rather their pricing ends up reflecting the markets demand for the brand. Fodera should probably charge twice what they currently do because of their 2-3 year wait list. I think any maker with a waiting list of over 1 year is charging too little for their basses. That isn't pricing based on brand status (IMO), that is pricing based on demand. Otherwise you end up in the Fodera situation where the waiting list is unmanagably long and people end up selling "places" in the line for more than the cost of their actual bass when ordered.

[greyparrot]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='503694' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:30 PM']I think a lot of the time people forget that you can enjoy things on many different levels. If the only reason to want a car was to get from A to B, we'd all be driving Fiat Panda's or Daiwoos or something. People get emotional attachments to objects beyond merely its function. The reality is that in 75%+ of all the musical applications you are likely to find yourself in, a well setup MIA Fender Jazz 4 or 5 would do the job just fine. Thats great, but I enjoy basses more than just functionally. I like to see the work of amazing lutheirs, ones who are at the forefront of innovation or design. I like to see the subtle changes in tone that can be achieved by different wood or pickup combinations. Would the audience ever be able to notice this either live or recorded? Probably not (unless they were a fellow bass-head), but I don't care. Its for me to enjoy and for me to spend my money on. You don't have to be Michael Schumacher to be able to enjoy a Ferrari. Sure, you might not be able to get to 100% of its potential, but if you can enjoy it and it brings you happiness then its worth it to you. I generally don't get invovled in these "is XYZ worth it" discussions for this very reason. No one can tell you where a bass is worth it to you because no one will know the myriad of things that go into determining the value of a bass for you. AC lets you have a DN fingerboard that is the same species and age as on vintage Fenders, but it costs $1500 extra. Would I pay that? No. That sort of cache isn't what rocks my boat. However, on a bass that I will post pics of soon (after I get it), the cost of the finish alone is more than the cost of a Sadowsky. Some might feel that isn't worth it. That doesn't matter, it's not their money that bought it.[/quote]


I agree some hand made basses are fantastic, and we all like what we like. I guess if i had loads of cash, i would have a spector or sadowsky (NYC). They sound and play great and are practical to play in terms of weight etc, But I guess for me, im coming at it at the working bass thing rather than the looks. I can see that point of view as well.


GP.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='503699' date='Jun 2 2009, 11:34 AM']I don't believe any instrument is priced solely based on the production costs of the actual instrument. That would be a recipe for failure.[/quote]
Not even instruments that are built to meet a specific budget? Such as a Warwick Rockbass?

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='503699' date='Jun 2 2009, 11:34 AM']FWIW I am not sure that instruments are priced on "brand status" either, but rather their pricing ends up reflecting the markets demand for the brand.[/quote]
So if the difference in on stage sound, looks, playability, workmanship and broad purchase cost between an AC, Celinder and Sadowsky is minimal then what else is there left for the consumer bassist to place value in to create the demand if not brand? Same goes for mid range instruments too BTW. Its an extremely competitive market out there and in the absence of Unique Selling Points, the only thing left to base a sales pitch on is the perception of 'added value', ie. brand status.

[Marlat]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='503722' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:53 PM']Not even instruments that are built to meet a specific budget? Such as a Warwick Rockbass?[/quote]

I'd imagine that Warwick makes a profit on those basses. They may be built to a certain price point, but the cost of production is not the "sole" element of the pricing, its merely one element; profit is another (as is distribution cost, marketing etc).

[quote]So if the difference in on stage sound, looks, playability, workmanship and broad purchase cost between an AC, Celinder and Sadowsky is minimal then what else is there left for the consumer bassist to place value in, apart from brand that creates the demand in the first place?[/quote]

Perhaps I was misunderstanding you when you said:

[quote]Unfortunately there is that aspect to bass pricing these days with the higher brands. Pricing on the base of brand status rather than the production costs of actual instrument is not something I personally agree with ... It's a cunning pricing strategy for a luthier who doesn't want to end up like Chris Celinder or Jon Shuker with waiting lists years long[/quote]

I took that to mean you were saying luthiers price based on what they want their brand status to be. My point was that lutheirs generally rpice based on the cost of production + demand and that its the demand that determines the brand status. I assume by brand status you are talking about desirability. I don't think price is what creates desirability, in fact, I'd go as far as saying that its one of the forces working against desirabilty (hence luthiers increase prices to reduce the wait times on their instruments). I'd say its desirability that influences the price. Perhaps you were saying the same thing, but that's not what I took from the words quoted above. I also think you'd be suprised at the low levels of profit on basses like ACs and Sadowskys. As a thought experiment, can you name me a single boutique luthier whos gotten rich because of their boutique bass output only?

If you speak with guys like Roger about the actual profit, they make a solid living, but the cost of a Sadowsky isn't just the cost of the materials, its the cost of the rent for his Dumbo based workshop, the 4 staff in his shop etc etc.

[Flanker]

I'm in the club. Very nice too.

Don't key my 911 greyparrot there's a good chap.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Flanker

[Platypus]

[quote name='Flanker' post='504895' date='Jun 3 2009, 05:53 PM']I'm in the club. Very nice too.

Don'y key my 911 greyparrot there's a good chap. [/quote]

Be careful that you don't get reported to the RSPB for parrot baiting

[Flanker]

[birdy]

Whoever bought this bass must be a right mug. Only someone with no talent who wanted to look good would possibly buy it:

Err.....
<scroll down>
























WHOOPS I DID IT AGAIN
[attachment=26482:photo.jpg]

[greyparrot]

HA ha nice one, enjoy.

GP.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='birdy' post='504956' date='Jun 3 2009, 07:21 PM']Whoever bought this bass must be a right mug. Only someone with no talent who wanted to look good would possibly buy it:

Err.....
<scroll down>

WHOOPS I DID IT AGAIN [/quote]

He he. Nice one. I'm coming over your way later...

[EBS_freak]

PS - it's lovely weather... porn pics are required me thinks...

[birdy]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='503692' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:28 PM']For that money though, I could take lessons and learn to make the instruments myself from well seasoned wood, as some BCers have already.[/quote]

If you had seen my woodworking skills you would see why I let Jimmy do all the hard work. I would have no fingers left if I attempted a self build

[birdy]

OK, I have had the bass long enough to get to know it well enough to comment on this thread and the pricing.
Firstly it was not £4200. It may have been advertised as that but it was for sale on the bass merchant website at £3750 for a start. I am not going to divulge exactly what I did or didn't pay as that's between Darren and myself.
I have owned a lot of high end basses such as Celinder, Sadowsky, Roscoe, Nordstrand, Overwater, GB etc etc. Its very subjective as to what is good or bad but in terms of overall quality I felt that Celinder, Roscoe and GB were at the top of the pile marginally. Sadowsky was pretty damn close but the other three just had a little something extra for me.
This AC bass is as good if not better than any of the three brands I mention. Granted they may all come in marginally cheaper than the AC but you pays your money and takes your choice.
The AC just sounds really really good. Flankers P bass which was a lot less than the Jazz I have also sounds amazing.
When you quote $4500 for a new one from the states that equates to about £3000 but then add on taxes and shipping and I doubt there is much in it at all. Thats assuming you all pay your taxes of course ;-)
Anyway, it is a very expensive bass but in this instance you get what you pay for.
Also, there are quite a few well respected top players who play them and pay full price when they could choose various other brands.

Thanks

Steve

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='birdy' post='505420' date='Jun 4 2009, 12:52 PM']OK, I have had the bass long enough to get to know it well enough to comment on this thread and the pricing.
Firstly it was not £4200. It may have been advertised as that but it was for sale on the bass merchant website at £3750 for a start. I am not going to divulge exactly what I did or didn't pay as that's between Darren and myself.
I have owned a lot of high end basses such as Celinder, Sadowsky, Roscoe, Nordstrand, Overwater, GB etc etc. Its very subjective as to what is good or bad but in terms of overall quality I felt that Celinder, Roscoe and GB were at the top of the pile marginally. Sadowsky was pretty damn close but the other three just had a little something extra for me.
This AC bass is as good if not better than any of the three brands I mention. Granted they may all come in marginally cheaper than the AC but you pays your money and takes your choice.
The AC just sounds really really good. Flankers P bass which was a lot less than the Jazz I have also sounds amazing.
When you quote $4500 for a new one from the states that equates to about £3000 but then add on taxes and shipping and I doubt there is much in it at all. Thats assuming you all pay your taxes of course ;-)
Anyway, it is a very expensive bass but in this instance you get what you pay for.
Also, there are quite a few well respected top players who play them and pay full price when they could choose various other brands.

Thanks

Steve[/quote]

Steve - I'm bringing my Argos Encore round. It's time for a bass off.

[birdy]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='505585' date='Jun 4 2009, 04:46 PM']Steve - I'm bringing my Argos Encore round. It's time for a bass off.[/quote]

No, please not your signature Encore

Edited June 4, 2009 by birdy

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='birdy' post='505589' date='Jun 4 2009, 04:56 PM']No, please not your signature Encore [/quote]

It's an artist model [i]actually[/i].

[4000]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='503722' date='Jun 2 2009, 12:53 PM']Not even instruments that are built to meet a specific budget? Such as a Warwick Rockbass?


So if the difference in on stage sound, looks, playability, workmanship and broad purchase cost between an AC, Celinder and Sadowsky is minimal then what else is there left for the consumer bassist to place value in to create the demand if not brand? Same goes for mid range instruments too BTW. Its an extremely competitive market out there and in the absence of Unique Selling Points, the only thing left to base a sales pitch on is the perception of 'added value', ie. brand status.[/quote]

Ah, but subtle differences in aesthetics and feel and tone can make all the difference in the world as to whether or not you want to buy bass A or bass B. I'd be unlikely to buy an AC because I don't like their headstock design, simple as that. That's not brand status, that's just personal aesthetics, which are a big thing for me.

[steve-soar]

I think their basses are beautiful. Looking at their site last night, showed me how much care, attention to detail and above all, skill in building, something which I would pay a premium for, goes into each instrument.

I may have to have a little think about getting one, one day, but finding a lefty in the U.K. to try would be some task. I suppose I could always try a righty and fill in the dots, so as to get a feel.

I'm going to look on their site again.

[EBS_freak]

Just got back from a night out at birdy's.

Oh my gosh. I am love. This is better than any F jazz bass clone that I have ever played. Better than US Lakland, Nordy, Sadowsky, Celinder... and actual Fender. I just picked it up and it just immediately felt right. The workmanship is spot on, the fretwork is absolutely perfect (we got the action down to my preference - e.g. super low - and not many basses will not do that without a serious fret dress to prevent buzzing and choking out) the paintjob is divine and the preamp is really, really good. It covers alot of bass tones from traditional old J bass sounds through to the more modern tones. That AC preamp really is something good. The control layout (the fact that you have two seperate volume controls for the pickups) make it a little more versatile than just having a standard pan. The noise level is exceptionally low for an active single coil jazz - especially when everything on the preamp is boosted to maximum. This is an exceptional jazz bass clone.

I'm very, very impressed. I want one. I think it is quite possibly going to be on my list of basses that I need to save up for.

And for those wondering in about the headstock - in the flesh it looks right... although in pictures it may seem a little large...? It certainly wouldn't bother me in the slightest anyway!

Expect some porn section photos soon!

[birdy]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='506034' date='Jun 5 2009, 01:44 AM']Just got back from a night out at birdy's.

Oh my gosh. I am love. This is better than any F jazz bass clone that I have ever played. Better than US Lakland, Nordy, Sadowsky, Celinder... and actual Fender. I just picked it up and it just immediately felt right. The workmanship is spot on, the fretwork is absolutely perfect (we got the action down to my preference - e.g. super low - and not many basses will not do that without a serious fret dress to prevent buzzing and choking out) the paintjob is divine and the preamp is really, really good. It covers alot of bass tones from traditional old J bass sounds through to the more modern tones. That AC preamp really is something good. The control layout (the fact that you have two seperate volume controls for the pickups) make it a little more versatile than just having a standard pan. The noise level is exceptionally low for an active single coil jazz - especially when everything on the preamp is boosted to maximum. This is an exceptional jazz bass clone.

I'm very, very impressed. I want one. I think it is quite possibly going to be on my list of basses that I need to save up for.

And for those wondering in about the headstock - in the flesh it looks right... although in pictures it may seem a little large...? It certainly wouldn't bother me in the slightest anyway!

Expect some porn section photos soon![/quote]


^^^^^^^^ That's why it is worth the money - Case Closed