Who plays 4/4 double bass (in preference to 3/4) and why?

[Beedster]

I've owned a 4/4 upright that I bought as a kit from Germany in 2015 and which as such is my longest standing item of gear. Until that point I'd played 3/4, but the moment I played the larger beats I knew I felt more at home. This is nothing to do with my stature, I'm 5'11'', with quite small hands. It's not really something I thought about until recently when I started gigging a 3/4 for al the wrong reasons and in doing missed the larger bass.

 

Anyway, i was reading over on Talkbass the opinions of a regular poster and apparent expert on DB that 4/4 instruments are very much an anachronism, unnecessary in an age of advanced string technology, good quality amplification etc. He even suggested that owner of 4/4 instruments will not be able to sell them therefore their value is significantly below 3/4 instruments of equivalent quality. 

 

Seems that much like my affection for large and heavy 1980's Mesa amps my affection of 4/4 basses is out of keeping with the current zeitgeist? 

 

Not that I give a flying f**k really! But it did leave me wondering just how many folks her plays 4/4 and why?

[Happy Jack]

I play a 4/4 at larger indoor gigs ... that's "larger" as in more room for me and my gear, so a nice big stage or something. Trouble is, that's only a dozen or so gigs a year.

 

For outdoor sunshine gigs I play my 3/4 AliKat because obviously it really sparkles in the sun. For all indoor gigs where space is at a premium I play the Kolstein Busetto that I bought a few years back from @bassacewhich originated on Basschat with @Clarky I believe. Now I've bought a KK Baby Bass which I'll use at jam sessions where not only is space limited but also I will be at the mercy of whoever claims to be "doing the sound" and the bass will be at the mercy of passing punters.

 

It's horses for courses, innit?

 

Not entirely sure I've actually answered any questions here ...

 

[Beedster]

15 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

I play a 4/4 at larger indoor gigs ... that's "larger" as in more room for me and my gear, so a nice big stage or something. Trouble is, that's only a dozen or so gigs a year.

 

For outdoor sunshine gigs I play my 3/4 AliKat because obviously it really sparkles in the sun. For all indoor gigs where space is at a premium I play the Kolstein Busetto that I bought a few years back from @bassacewhich originated on Basschat with @Clarky I believe. Now I've bought a KK Baby Bass which I'll use at jam sessions where not only is space limited but also I will be at the mercy of whoever claims to be "doing the sound" and the bass will be at the mercy of passing punters.

 

It's horses for courses, innit?

 

Not entirely sure I've actually answered any questions here ...

 

 

Which would you choose to play all other things permitting Jack?

[Happy Jack]

In truth? Probably the 3/4 Zeller I sold to make way for the 4/4 Zeller. 😂

[Clarky]

3 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

In truth? Probably the 3/4 Zeller I sold 

Which also originated from - and now resides again with - @Clarky 😆

 

The circle of BassChat life init

[JoeEvans]

When I bought my current DB from the Double Bass Room it was really interesting to see a room full of basses of different ages all together. They're so lacking in standardisation compared to violins! Different heights, depths, widths, shapes, colours and of course sounds. I'm not really convinced that they fit neatly into 3/4 and 4/4; it's more like a spectrum. 

My choice was mostly down to the sound (with an eye for condition obviously) and I came away with an instrument that's getting into 4/4 territory for height, but perhaps on the slender side in terms of width and depth compared to some 4/4s. I guess most people choose for similar reasons - which bass sounds the best to the buyer's ear?

As for convenience, any double bass is a massive pain in the derrière to move around and I don't think a few inches here or there make much difference...

[Beer of the Bass]

I haven't really played many basses larger than my current old flatback, which I guess would be classed as 3/4. It's bigger than the other old flatback I owned before, also considered 3/4.

Though I've noticed that with some modern student basses like the Stentors, their 3/4 tends towards the smaller end of the range, so If I were looking at those I might be inclined to investigate the 4/4.

[Beedster]

41 minutes ago, Clarky said:

Which also originated from - and now resides again with - @Clarky 😆

 

The circle of BassChat life init

Less a circle, and more an out-and-back to and from Clarky 😆

[Bloopdad1]

Err... The majority of professional classical double bassists. 

 

If one bass out of the section of 8 was a 3/4 size laminate bass for example it would stick out (sonically and visually) like a sore thumb. 

 

99% of bass sections in symphonic, ballet and operatic playing have 4/4 sized instruments. 

[Beedster]

10 hours ago, Bloopdad1 said:

Err... The majority of professional classical double bassists. 

 

If one bass out of the section of 8 was a 3/4 size laminate bass for example it would stick out (sonically and visually) like a sore thumb. 

 

99% of bass sections in symphonic, ballet and operatic playing have 4/4 sized instruments. 

 

That was always my understanding @Bloopdad1, having played in orchestras when I was younger (not DB by the way) I always expected double basses to be far bigger than those I started to come across when I got into playing DB in bands. Is it still the case that most orchestral players play 4/4?

[Beer of the Bass]

Is there some international variation in the bass sizes conventionally used by orchestras? I'm sure I've seen more discussion of large older basses having their shoulders cut down and scale length reduced from the US than from the UK and Europe. That might be a factor in why Talkbass gives a different impression.

[Beedster]

2 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

Is there some international variation in the bass sizes conventionally used by orchestras? I'm sure I've seen more discussion of large older basses having their shoulders cut down and scale length reduced from the US than from the UK and Europe. That might be a factor in why Talkbass gives a different impression.

 

Interesting question, there's certainly a few threads on TB about reducing scale length, which strikes me as a pretty dramatic step although there is also something of an obsession among some for modifications to optimise the overall tone (e.g., mode matching) that might explain this as much as playability? 

[Bloopdad1]

Hi, me again.

It's important to remember the ages and original resources available to luthiers making orchestral basses. 

Bass sizing is only a recent thing (as is players quoting "D" necks or "Eb" necks. Up to about 1920 you never heard of a 3/4 or 4/4 size.... They were just "big" or small, or chamber bass or baroque or parlour or solo basses. 

 

Also basses made in the 1600's were small as the developing chamber music was much quieter. 

Weras basses made in the 1850's facing Brahms, Bartok, Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn had to be huge orchestral tone cannons. 

(then William Tarr, Panormo, Kennedy, Lott, JTL, Rubner and the big Germans were even bigger for Shostakovic, Bruckner, Walton, Wagner, R Strauss etc!) 

They were built for a purpose not for a set size - there weren't any set sizes. 

If for example in 1835 a Luthier like James Lott Snr received a commission from a tall gentleman he would make him a big bass and for a smaller chap would make a small bass to fit him. 

They were literally made to measure. 

There were no set sizes back then (there were for violins though). 

 

Additionally if a Luthier was making stock (like Kennedy did often) if he had a small lump of wood then he'd make a small bass, and vice versa. 

 

I've seen and played huge basses with short string lengths and one small English chamber bass with a almost unplayable 45" scale!! 😳 

*hands like shovels.. 

Yes, it was all the rage around the turn of last century to cut down the top bouts and ribs but now luthiers can adapt a bass to be more acceptable and playable using less evasive techniques. 

 

The basses in pro orchestras are regarded as "full size" because they're just big original 150 to 350 year old basses. 

Modern orchestral instruments (from 1920) are made 4/4 so that they simply fit in the section with the original ancient beasts. 

 

Although my 1840 James Cole bass is tiny - these days I suppose it would be classed as a small 3/4, although the top ribs don't fit into a 3/4 size case! 😂 

More than the sizes it's the sound. Just by listening I can tell the difference between an old big German, a French and an old gorgeous English bass (although there's also a massive difference between London built mid C1900 bass to a similar aged Northern English basses (Tarr, Howarth, Cole, Gilkes, Forster etc) superb sound but about 25% cheaper! 

Master Italian basses are harder to spot as they're so different and, well, just a bit weird... 

 

There you go, that's my two peneth. 

Orchestral basses are usually 4/4...... because that's what they've always been! 

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, Bloopdad1 said:

Hi, me again.

It's important to remember the ages and original resources available to luthiers making orchestral basses. 

Bass sizing is only a recent thing (as is players quoting "D" necks or "Eb" necks. Up to about 1920 you never heard of a 3/4 or 4/4 size.... They were just "big" or small, or chamber bass or baroque or parlour or solo basses. 

 

Also basses made in the 1600's were small as the developing chamber music was much quieter. 

Weras basses made in the 1850's facing Brahms, Bartok, Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn had to be huge orchestral tone cannons. 

(then William Tarr, Panormo, Kennedy, Lott, JTL, Rubner and the big Germans were even bigger for Shostakovic, Bruckner, Walton, Wagner, R Strauss etc!) 

They were built for a purpose not for a set size - there weren't any set sizes. 

If for example in 1835 a Luthier like James Lott Snr received a commission from a tall gentleman he would make him a big bass and for a smaller chap would make a small bass to fit him. 

They were literally made to measure. 

There were no set sizes back then (there were for violins though). 

 

Additionally if a Luthier was making stock (like Kennedy did often) if he had a small lump of wood then he'd make a small bass, and vice versa. 

 

I've seen and played huge basses with short string lengths and one small English chamber bass with a almost unplayable 45" scale!! 😳 

*hands like shovels.. 

Yes, it was all the rage around the turn of last century to cut down the top bouts and ribs but now luthiers can adapt a bass to be more acceptable and playable using less evasive techniques. 

 

The basses in pro orchestras are regarded as "full size" because they're just big original 150 to 350 year old basses. 

Modern orchestral instruments (from 1920) are made 4/4 so that they simply fit in the section with the original ancient beasts. 

 

Although my 1840 James Cole bass is tiny - these days I suppose it would be classed as a small 3/4, although the top ribs don't fit into a 3/4 size case! 😂 

More than the sizes it's the sound. Just by listening I can tell the difference between an old big German, a French and an old gorgeous English bass (although there's also a massive difference between London built mid C1900 bass to a similar aged Northern English basses (Tarr, Howarth, Cole, Gilkes, Forster etc) superb sound but about 25% cheaper! 

Master Italian basses are harder to spot as they're so different and, well, just a bit weird... 

 

There you go, that's my two peneth. 

Orchestral basses are usually 4/4...... because that's what they've always been! 

Not often a post on an internet forum makes me:

1. Smile
2. Want to hear more from the poster
3. Want to rush out and by a book about the same topic

In short, many thanks @Bloopdad1. Feel free to respond re number 2, and any recommendations re number 3?

 

Chris

[Beer of the Bass]

Ah, makes sense, I guess the standardised bass as a catalogue item wouldn't really have existed until the German "shop basses" came in. Which would be, what, late 19th century maybe?

[NickA]

Mine's a 4/4.  1880s German, 43.25" scale but not unmanageably deep. Eflat neck.  Used to belong to the Netherlands National Radio Orchestra.

 

I bought it because out of those available (in 1989) that I could afford ( all my savings) it sounded most like how I thought a double bass should sound.  Deep and fat. It seemed like you got a better bass for your money by buying an unpopular 4/4 rather than a sought after 3/4 and the fashion then was for violin shoulders and corners where mine is viol shaped; I got a lot of bass for my money.

 

I still love the sound of it; a bit unrefined perhaps but deep and sonorous.
I've thought of changing to a 3/4 a few times, but those I've tried all sound a bit "cello"y, shorter on sustain and just don't have that big rich bottom E.  I've also found that the long scale down-tunes to D A D G and C G D G really well for some orchestral stuff.

 

I guess that if I wanted to play harder music ( beyond amateur orchestra and mainstream jazz) a shorter scale would help.  Bassbags offered to cut the scale down to give it a D neck ..easier to play, same big body... but I didn't want it going under the knife, or to lose the easy access to higher notes at the neck.

[neilp]

On 11/01/2024 at 16:39, Beedster said:

I've owned a 4/4 upright that I bought as a kit from Germany in 2015 and which as such is my longest standing item of gear. Until that point I'd played 3/4, but the moment I played the larger beats I knew I felt more at home. This is nothing to do with my stature, I'm 5'11'', with quite small hands. It's not really something I thought about until recently when I started gigging a 3/4 for al the wrong reasons and in doing missed the larger bass.

 

Anyway, i was reading over on Talkbass the opinions of a regular poster and apparent expert on DB that 4/4 instruments are very much an anachronism, unnecessary in an age of advanced string technology, good quality amplification etc. He even suggested that owner of 4/4 instruments will not be able to sell them therefore their value is significantly below 3/4 instruments of equivalent quality. 

 

Seems that much like my affection for large and heavy 1980's Mesa amps my affection of 4/4 basses is out of keeping with the current zeitgeist? 

 

Not that I give a flying f**k really! But it did leave me wondering just how many folks her plays 4/4 and why?

Was that Ken Smith by any chance?? Ken knows everything, to the point of telling me that my beautiful and gorgeous sounding 19th century German blockless bass was utterly valueless and needed complete restoration, blocks fitted, new neck, overstand adjustment, conversion to shorter mensure and D neck, and even then it would be barely worth matchwood. This is a bass thats been appraised at £12-15K

 

For what it's worth, my bass has a string length just under 110cm, and an Eb neck. I bought it because of the way it felt and sounded, without even thinking about string length. The only slight issue for me is the higher string tension, which is mostly solved by using Kaplan Lights. Play what you enjoy and don't worry about what self-appointed Gurus say!

[Beedster]

20 hours ago, neilp said:

Was that Ken Smith by any chance?? Ken knows everything, to the point of telling me that my beautiful and gorgeous sounding 19th century German blockless bass was utterly valueless and needed complete restoration, blocks fitted, new neck, overstand adjustment, conversion to shorter mensure and D neck, and even then it would be barely worth matchwood. This is a bass thats been appraised at £12-15K

 

For what it's worth, my bass has a string length just under 110cm, and an Eb neck. I bought it because of the way it felt and sounded, without even thinking about string length. The only slight issue for me is the higher string tension, which is mostly solved by using Kaplan Lights. Play what you enjoy and don't worry about what self-appointed Gurus say!

Nicely put, and yes, that sounds like the guy, all 4/4s are firewood and anyone stupid enough to own/play one has to accept that reality  

 

My 4/4 is a tad over 44 inches and while it requires more effort/shifts to get around the neck than I do on 3/4, the feel, intonation, and tone are significantly better to the point that I'll happily accept the trade-off with needing more position shifts etc. Having said this, oddly the upper register on the 4/4 is far more accessible than the 3/4, I've yet to figure out why?  

[bassace]

Just settling down after coming in from the wind and rain may I be permitted to hijack this?

In my younger days there was a group on tv a lot called the Hedley Ward Trio. The DB player played a shortened double bass looking a bit like a CzechEase but a long time before David Gage, on a long stick. He explained that it was a Bassette known among musos at the time as a little bastard. I’ve never found any reference since until only recently I saw an ad for an old instrument with a 97cm scale length called a Bassetto. Anyone?

Edited January 21 by bassace

[Beer of the Bass]

On 20/01/2024 at 20:05, neilp said:

Was that Ken Smith by any chance?? Ken knows everything, to the point of telling me that my beautiful and gorgeous sounding 19th century German blockless bass was utterly valueless and needed complete restoration, blocks fitted, new neck, overstand adjustment, conversion to shorter mensure and D neck, and even then it would be barely worth matchwood. This is a bass thats been appraised at £12-15K

 

For what it's worth, my bass has a string length just under 110cm, and an Eb neck. I bought it because of the way it felt and sounded, without even thinking about string length. The only slight issue for me is the higher string tension, which is mostly solved by using Kaplan Lights. Play what you enjoy and don't worry about what self-appointed Gurus say!

 

He does appear to know his stuff and have a lot of experience with fine basses and serious players, but I always get the feeling his opinions are heavily coloured by how his particular shop runs. So "this bass has no value" mostly means he wouldn't be able to turn a profit on it with his business model and clientele.

But any Talkbass posts of his would have to be a few years old, I think he was a little much for them too.