Buget practice rig to sound like PA?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On 22/12/2023 at 06:57, DocTrucker said:

I heard a long time ago that stereo hearing doesn't work too well woth bass frequencies. Hence home cinemas tending to have one sub. Is that still the current understanding?

It's acoustical engineering fact. Stereo only exists where the ear can directionally locate the source, which is roughly below 100Hz. This being the case low frequency content on recordings has been summed to mono since the 1970s. Home cinemas can get away with one sub for that reason, but they still work better with at least two, for smoothing of the in-room response.

 

Quote

As folk have already said not many subs are rated down to the ~30Hz needed for  low B on a 5 or 6 string.

Home theater subs are. Most PA subs are not, as for the most part the size, and expense, is prohibitive. But it doesn't matter There's very little low B string fundamental content, it's mostly harmonics. The same is true of the E. That's why few bass cabs go flat below even 50Hz. It's not needed. But PA subs do go flat, usually to 35Hz or so, and that's the main reason why bass can sound so overblown when the guy in the FOH doesn't know what bass is supposed to sound like. It's also why using an FRFR PA cab won't give the same tone as what a large PA will, unless you also have a 35Hz capable sub.

[Mottlefeeder]

One point that might be worth considering. 

How do things sound without your hearing aids?

I'm using "ambient mic > mixer > earphones" but I went for a mixer with 3-band EQ in order to boost the mids to give me back the clarity I lost when I took the hearing aids out.

David

[Paul S]

What sort of hearing aids do you have?  Mine are NHS digital Oticon of some sort.  They pair with an app on my phone which does various things, including turn the volume down.  This, in effect, gives me ambient sound piped directly into my ears at a comfortable volume.  This might be something to explore?

 

[Mottlefeeder]

3 hours ago, Paul S said:

What sort of hearing aids do you have?  Mine are NHS digital Oticon of some sort.  They pair with an app on my phone which does various things, including turn the volume down.  This, in effect, gives me ambient sound piped directly into my ears at a comfortable volume.  This might be something to explore?

 

Unless your hearing aid transducers are noise isolating, using them instead of earplugs will expose you to full on band volume. Turning them down will not help.

David

[Phil Starr]

5 hours ago, DocTrucker said:

That's a great idea thanks!

Not my idea but I have tried it 😀

[DocTrucker]

11 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

It's acoustical engineering fact. Stereo only exists where the ear can directionally locate the source, which is roughly below 100Hz.

 

One idea I was thinking about was a standard bass cabinet with a reasonably plain amp then integrating that into a PA system to it at a later date using a digital cross over to make best use of stereo effects pedals. Looks like that may not be entirely effective.

Edited December 24, 2023 by DocTrucker

[Downunderwonder]

Stereo fx are for only good recording and playback under ideal conditions. Bar room not included.

 

Bill made a rare booboo. Stereo is located above 100hz.

[Paul S]

9 hours ago, Mottlefeeder said:

Unless your hearing aid transducers are noise isolating, using them instead of earplugs will expose you to full on band volume. Turning them down will not help.

David

 

I don't know what you mean by 'noise isolating' - they have silicon cups at the ends of the tubes that fit themselves to the inside of my ear.  If I take out my hearing aids I can't hear very much at all.  If I put my hearing aids in, and have them set at their usual level, the band is loud.  If I turn the level down via the app I can hear but it isn't loud.  Works for me, anyway.

[DocTrucker]

@Paul S I think what he is getting at is that progressive hearing loss is likely to occur at the same noise levels as normal folk despite us finding it more comfortable by switching aids off. The open hearing aids like you describe don't do much to attenuate noise levels, they are intended to compliment the hearing levels you have left.

 

I run on the molded type in my right ear and it is nice to have the mute function for noisey enviroments but I know from trying to stream audio to them the sound quality just isn't there to be of much use in my case. Being a-symetric it just tends to give a slight echo on everything which largely reduces clarity for me. Everyone is unique though, and I do still find them useful. Especially so for spacial awareness when out and about.

[DocTrucker]

With the growing capability and popularity of the digital effects processors and class D amps it seems like we're in need of a standard digital streaming format.

 

Analogue from bass

To digital for effects processor in

To analogue for effects out

To digital for class d in

To analogue for class d output stage.

 

That's without a wireless bass setup and there's potential to loose detail and gain artefacts on each of those changes.

 

Sure analogue gear has loss of tone issues too, especially at the cheap end but it would seem advantageous to have the option  of doing the analogue to digital once and visa versa at the power amp stage. This would obviously be knackered if uou have a favourite analogue pedal.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

8 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Bill made a rare booboo. Stereo is located above 100hz.

Oops. But you know what I meant. 😄

[Mottlefeeder]

6 hours ago, Paul S said:

 

I don't know what you mean by 'noise isolating' - they have silicon cups at the ends of the tubes that fit themselves to the inside of my ear.  If I take out my hearing aids I can't hear very much at all.  If I put my hearing aids in, and have them set at their usual level, the band is loud.  If I turn the level down via the app I can hear but it isn't loud.  Works for me, anyway.

I'm not a hearing expert, and I have only discussed two types of aids with my audiologist.

The first was hearing aids that could be fitted to moulded inserts, which give good isolation - not necessary for day to day use in my case.

The second was the "bean behind the ear" where the in-ear tube or transducer was fitted to a perforated flange, which centres it in the ear canal, but does nothing to keep noise out. 

If the latter, your phone app controls will not take the volume below ambient.

David

(Posted before I realised @DocTrucker had covered the same ground)

Edited December 24, 2023 by Mottlefeeder

[tauzero]

10 hours ago, DocTrucker said:

With the growing capability and popularity of the digital effects processors and class D amps it seems like we're in need of a standard digital streaming format.

 

Analogue from bass

To digital for effects processor in

To analogue for effects out

To digital for class d in

To analogue for class d output stage.

 

That's without a wireless bass setup and there's potential to loose detail and gain artefacts on each of those changes.

 

Sure analogue gear has loss of tone issues too, especially at the cheap end but it would seem advantageous to have the option  of doing the analogue to digital once and visa versa at the power amp stage. This would obviously be knackered if uou have a favourite analogue pedal.

 

I think there is what you are terming a standard digital streaming format (although digital streaming has a different meaning) - SPDIF would enable signals to be kept in the digital domain through both digital effects processing and amplification. In the case of the Line 6 Helix, and I'm sure others, there's an SPDIF output that could be used to feed digital data through to a power amp. It would mean keeping analogue effects at the front end of the effects chain though.

[Dan Dare]

I think the discussion might be getting a little ahead of itself. It's difficult for us to make practical suggestions for someone who has hearing loss, especially if they have a limited budget and are looking to buy used. We simply can't put ourselves in a person's position if they are hearing impaired and know what to recommend.

 

You often can't try used gear in a playing environment. I would advise the OP to take the time to try a variety of options at some decent shops. If he finds something that works for him, even if it is out of budget, better to borrow or save to get it, buy once and cry once and at least have something that does the job.

[DocTrucker]

The wide range of comments has been helpful, and pointed out a few boo-boos of my own. I'm likely to go down the route of a second hand rig (with a fairly neutral sound) for the time being and I'm tempted to break out the scope and see what I can learn from that before looking to do something more bespoke.

 

Thanks for the comments though, really spiked the interest.

[Baloney Balderdash]

Studio headphones and a small mixer or headphones preamp would be the obvious and most straightforward practical and easy answer.

 

On a really low budget the Behringer BH 470 studio headphones are actually surprisingly decent for bass practice: https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_bh_470.htm

 

But if you are willing to pay more I'd recommend the Sennheiser HD-300 Pro studio headphones: https://www.thomann.de/gb/sennheiser_hd_300_pro.htm

 

If you insist on a real speaker though I can't recommend the The Box PA 502 A, that Thomann sells, enough, simply amazing sounding active flat frequency full range PA speaker, with an impressive low frequency response, perfect for bass, and just overall amazing sounding, and not just for the price: https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa502a_aktives_fullrangesystem.htm

 

Biamping regular SS, not Class D.

 

300W 1x15" bass/mids woofer/driver and a 100W 1.7" high mids/high frequency tweeter :-: 300W RMS/1200W Peak :-: Crossover Freq: 2.3kHz :-: Freq response: 35Hz-20kHz (-10dB)/40Hz-18kHz (-3dB) :-: Sensitivity (1m/1W): 96 dB.

 

Comes in a passive version too, the The Box Pa 502.

 

Weights about a ton though.

 

The The Box PA 502 or PA 502 A would work great as a backgear on stage bass monitor too, or at band practices in place on a dedicated bass cab/amp, if you want a sound that approximates that of a venue PA.

 

Edited February 19 by Baloney Balderdash