Anyone happy to share the do's and don'ts of how to set up for a live gig in a pub?

[TimR]

I guess there will be compromises. If the drummer is using in-ears then he probably needs his own mix, so the two monitors may have to just have the same 'vocal' mix. 

[jimmyb625]

8 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

That's interesting.  If I'm successful in reducing our stage volume, won't the Drummer find it (even more) difficult to hear the guitars and bass especially if he uses IEM's?   Whilst i wasn't thinking of putting the guitars, drums and bass through the Vocal monitors, my trials with IEM's, so far, indicate I need vocals, guitars, bass (.... and might even be tempted with a little drum to improve the "lock-in" between bass and drums) via my monitor feed.   
Am I missing something?     

If you're using IEM's, you can still take all of the instruments into the PA, but you'd only put them into the aux mixes, not the mains feeding l&r. Think of it as the same way of using a click, where you'd only want it going into the monitor feed.

[TimR]

9 minutes ago, jimmyb625 said:

If you're using IEM's, you can still take all of the instruments into the PA, but you'd only put them into the aux mixes, not the mains feeding l&r. Think of it as the same way of using a click, where you'd only want it going into the monitor feed.

 

I think the issue is only having 3 Aux sends and rapidly running out of sub mix availability.

 

ie send for drummer IEM, lead vocal's monitor and backing vocal's monitor. 

 

 

I would just concentrate on getting everyone to turn down and not worry too much about loads of sub mixes. That problem may* just go away with a reduction in stage volume.

 

*It definitely will IMO.

[TimR]

I think getting stage volumes to manageable levels first would be your main aim.

 

One monitor shared by lead and backing. 

 

Learn what works in lots of different stage environments. Particularly as you may work on sound check and get everything really good by the end of one gig and then you will have to do it all again at the next venue due to different acoustics.

 

Spending money on additional gear will just complicate the number of knobs to twiddle and may never solve the problem. 

 

Being able to EQ monitors separately to FOH and control the level from the desk is pretty much a requirement. How you do that, even if its just a 7 band stand alone EQ is another matter. 

[Pirellithecat]

Yep - reduce sound levels first then think about different/more monitor mixes 👍    I can (have) used the EQ controls on the Monitors.  Basically rolled off the bass and fiddled with the Mids/Treble to get meaningful info out of the monitors without  feedback (as far as I can with the Laney anyway!!).

 

Cheers everyone - 4 rehearsals and 4 gigs in the next 4 weeks so I'll see how I get on and report back. 

[vsmith1]

On 02/10/2023 at 09:36, Pirellithecat said:

🤣 Great! ...... so that'd be 4 monitor feeds  (Bass, Drums, 2 Vocals) ... and we've recently replaced our mixer with a nice new shiny Mackie 16ProFX ........ with 3 Aux Sends!!!!     😳Doh!   But you are right.    I'll start trying to sell all my  "spare" gear (and maybe a kidney) to fund a 4 Aux send mixer -  any suggestions!!   What were you using on Saturday - great sound with several monitor feeds and not enormous in terms of "footprint".     Great crowd response too - how did Sunday go?

Well yes - as a future-proof suggestion - have as many AUX/Monitor feeds as you have band members. And some might be even happier with a stereo IEM aux mix. 

Thanks for the compliment. Saturday was our usual (2 Hoots) small venue set up a) inputs: e-drums with stereo in, gtr1 Combo with DI 1 in, gtr2 combo with DI in, bass DI (GK Plex), lead vox, drummer vox, gtr1 vox, gtr2 vox, bass vox. b) aux outs: lead vox wedge, drummer wedge, gtr1 wedge, gtr2 wedge, bassist IEM. c) outs: main L&R Note I had no backline just the GK Plex DI and IEMs. Our lead vox wears hearing aids and so has his wedge loud. Which means that everything else on stage has to fit around that.  We use a Behringer XAir which has 6 AUXes. Each person in the band can have their own monitor mix. Eg for me, I have mostly my vox, my Bass with a lesser amount of each other instrument and vox. For larger venues I take a backline (and use a full-sized rather than the short-scale), but it is still DI'd in. I usually wear my IEM in any case for my hearing protection (that lead vox wedge is loud!). 

The other band I play in (Alice & The Looking Glass), is similar: a) inputs: e-drums with stereo in, gtr1 Combo with DI 1 in, gtr2 combo with DI in, acoustic gtr in, mandolin DI in, keyboard in, bass DI (GK Plex), lead vox, gtr2 vox, bass vox. b) aux outs: lead vox IEM, drummer IEM, gtr1 wedge, bassist IEM. c) outs: main L&R. IN larger venues the drum e-kit is a mic'd up acoustic kit, and I'll have a backline (again not the short-scale) with the amp DI'd in. We use a Soundcraft ui24r which has at least 6 AUXes.

 

Sunday was a great response too! Here is some video from FB. Just phone video, so the sound quality is not brilliant, and taken from upstairs: https://fb.watch/nrHBDLcBqa/

[Pirellithecat]

Bloody hell - and I'm worrying about too complex!  How long does it usually take to get set up and sound check?  I guess with experience (and less back line) it gets easier/quicker?  I ask because at our upcoming gig we follow a band who nominally finish at 8pm.  No shared gear so they have to clear away before we can make a start setting up (PA, Drums, Monitors, Backline, Sound Check) and be ready to start at 9pm.  If they have an encore -  we're stuffed! 
In preparation I shall watching replays of Formula 1 Pit Stops!
Thanks for the detail though - very useful!  

   

[vsmith1]

29 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

Bloody hell - and I'm worrying about too complex!  How long does it usually take to get set up and sound check?  I guess with experience (and less back line) it gets easier/quicker?  I ask because at our upcoming gig we follow a band who nominally finish at 8pm.  No shared gear so they have to clear away before we can make a start setting up (PA, Drums, Monitors, Backline, Sound Check) and be ready to start at 9pm.  If they have an encore -  we're stuffed! 
In preparation I shall watching replays of Formula 1 Pit Stops!
Thanks for the detail though - very useful!  

   

It sounds it, though being organised and getting all band members to do their bits is very important. I create a Hook Up diagram, everyone knows which sockets they plug their instrument(s)/mics in, which AUX goes to their monitor. Keep it the same even colour code it. Then the mixer set up is just down to little tweaks, to satisfy the room, some monitor mix changes due to positional changes. The advantage is a a digital mixer. Save the settings and up to go quickly. An analogue mixer sometimes can have the knobs, faders moved during getting in in or out of the case.
In terms of setting up, the loading in takes a time (especially the drums), and then cabling up can take a little while. Otherwise it is quick due to the saved settings in the digital desks.

[TimR]

You'll be hard pushed to find a practical live analogue mixer with more than 4 AUX outs. I had a mixer many years ago that had 2 pre fade and 2 post fade aux, but in those days only used the 2 pre fade for monitors. 

[Al Krow]

MixWizard WZ4 14:4:2 | Allen & Heath (allen-heath.com) - 6 aux outs

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Al Krow

[tauzero]

2 hours ago, vsmith1 said:

It sounds it, though being organised and getting all band members to do their bits is very important. I create a Hook Up diagram, everyone knows which sockets they plug their instrument(s)/mics in, which AUX goes to their monitor. Keep it the same even colour code it.

 

My band has only done three or four gigs so far, so I have yet to fully train them, but at least they're eager to learn and to help. I've just got two monitors and two mains for a vocals-only PA (one main and two backing), orange leads for FOH (XLR-XLR) and green leads for monitors (TRS jack-XLR), but I must get round to telling them that for each I have one lead longer than the other (so the XR12 can go one side or the other of the stage without miles of surplus cable). I've also got to get the vocalist to put the speaker stands up right (he keeps pulling them through so the bottom of the pole is above the inner strut pivot points). Still, everyone is good at helping load and unload.

[TimR]

30 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

MixWizard WZ4 14:4:2 | Allen & Heath (allen-heath.com) - 6 aux outs

 

 

 

That's still a 4:2. If you're using the 2 as mains, it's 4 aux. 

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, TimR said:

 

That's still a 4:2. If you're using the 2 as mains, it's 4 aux. 

But any particular need to do that when it comes laden with actual mains out? 

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

MixWizard WZ4 14:4:2 | Allen & Heath (allen-heath.com) - 6 aux outs

 

 

Gosh that looks complex after using a digital mixer.

[Huge Hands]

45 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

That's still a 4:2. If you're using the 2 as mains, it's 4 aux. 

I find that website really confusing.

 

In my old days of analogue desks, the 14:4:2 would mean 14 input channels into 4 subgroups, into 1 stereo output.  The auxiliary outputs should be totally separate, and it is saying there are 6 of them.

 

However, the blurb does seem to say the auxiliary outputs share with the subgroup and LR outputs.  Very odd......

[TimR]

Looks to me that aux 5/6 can either be linked to the mains or the groups. But not both and there is no 5/6 output. 

[TimR]

We are taking about a pub band. So 2 aux and 2 mains is pretty much all you'll ever need. Anything else is people being premadonnas. 

[Pirellithecat]

 

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

MixWizard WZ4 14:4:2 | Allen & Heath (allen-heath.com) - 6 aux outs

 

 

 Hmm - I wonder what the common-or-garden-pub-gigging-band's budget is?    Am I right in thinking this is around £1400?
Might be a compelling argument for going digital?   I must become more brave ...........

[Al Krow]

15 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said:

 

 Hmm - I wonder what the common-or-garden-pub-gigging-band's budget is?    Am I right in thinking this is around £1400?
Might be a compelling argument for going digital?   I must become more brave ...........

Yup. We can get 4 individual outputs from our Soundcraft MTK12 desk, which is all we need as a. 4 piece band. Fully tailored output on two, more restricted on the other two eg headphone out gives the FoH mix. Around £450.

 

Our next desk (whenever we decide to upgrade) is probably going to be digital, but with faders / ability to tweak on the fly mid song without needing a tablet.

 

There's a whole separate dedicated thread on compact mixers for you to dive into 😅

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Al Krow

[Oopsdabassist]

1 hour ago, tauzero said:

 

 I've also got to get the vocalist to put the speaker stands up right (he keeps pulling them through so the bottom of the pole is above the inner strut pivot points). Still, everyone is good at helping load and unload.

 

I've got a singer who does that too #sigh#

[jimmyb625]

4 hours ago, TimR said:

 

That's still a 4:2. If you're using the 2 as mains, it's 4 aux. 

It's 6 aux. The 4 refers to 4 groups.

 

[jimmyb625]

The MixWizard is a great desk. Although it's not cheap by any stretch of the imagination and certainly when compared to an xr18, or CQ, you'd wonder why anyone would bother buying a new one. 

 

Here you go, all the aux outs you'll need for less than £600!!

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175929527200?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=WBXQdsVTRGO&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=ZHVO_SrYQeO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[TimR]

47 minutes ago, jimmyb625 said:

It's 6 aux. The 4 refers to 4 groups.

 

 

I've not used this particular mixer but the manual refers to 2 modes.

 

FOH mode in which case the 6 outputs are G1 - G4, L and R.

And

Mix mode in which case the 6 outputs are Aux 1 - 6.

 

That implies to me you can have L&R for front of house and 1-4 for monitors.

 

Or 1-6 for monitors. In which case you're using it as a monitor mixer and need another mixer to deal with FOH. 

 

Anyway, it's Allen and Heath, that's a high end mixer as already pointed out nearly £1600 new and with 14+ channels a tad overkill for a pub band. 

 

Most pub bands are going to be using a Soundcraft Spirit at most expensive or behringer/Yammah equivalent. 

 

 

[Kickass]

The Mixwizard has LR master out and 4 group outs, these are normally controlled by the faders. and use the XLR outs. It also has 6 Aux outs, normally on TRS and controlled by nobs (Aux1-6). These two output and control methods can be swapped so the faders and XLRs can be used for Aux outs, and the nobs control the LR and Gps through the TRS. The desk also has mono out on XLR for subs or engineers wedge as well as LR monitor out on TRS. It also has 2 matrix outputs Stereo out on TRS which normally carry the LR mix. That is 16 outputs.

I had to read the manual when this machine was included in this thread... 

Dane

 

Further looking at the Mixwizard shows it has 10 direct outs from the mic channels... more outs than ins!

Edited October 3, 2023 by Kickass
Detail, and more..

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, TimR said:

 

I've not used this particular mixer but the manual refers to 2 modes.

 

FOH mode in which case the 6 outputs are G1 - G4, L and R.

And

Mix mode in which case the 6 outputs are Aux 1 - 6.

 

That implies to me you can have L&R for front of house and 1-4 for monitors.

 

Or 1-6 for monitors. In which case you're using it as a monitor mixer and need another mixer to deal with FOH. 

 

Anyway, it's Allen and Heath, that's a high end mixer as already pointed out nearly £1600 new and with 14+ channels a tad overkill for a pub band. 

 

Most pub bands are going to be using a Soundcraft Spirit at most expensive or behringer/Yammah equivalent. 

 

 

A&H do more budget desks too eg their Zed / ZedFx range. Not many aux out, but well built and very decent quality. Several pub bands I know, including my former band, use them. 

 

I don't think we should assume all pub bands use only budget desks though, any more than we can assume that the bass player won't be taking a high end bass rig and £1k+ bass to their pub gigs.