dave_bass5 Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 Hopefully this is in the right place. In my main band I have 5 singers. They don’t all have good mic technique, so their mics get a lot of bleed. sometimes quiet, sometimes loud etc. not consistent. Our XR18 has gates, but due to the poor mic technique I can’t seem to get the right balance and either lose some of the vocals or it does nothing. Ok, so I know the correct answer is get them to sing properly, but if they could they would. At the moment I feel leaving the mics live on songs they aren’t singing on will at least keep the mix consistent. Is this a good way to approach it? Again, I’m look for the best practice within the restrictions of what I have to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 12 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said: Ok, so I know the correct answer is get them to sing properly Life would be so simple....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 In order of cost - 1st improvement- correct mic technique. Eat the mic, work the mic, keep the gains low so your vocalist input is way, way, way louder than the surroundings. 2nd improvement - get the band to turn down. 3rd improvement - use mics with greater off axis rejection... however, if you vocalists aren't too hot on mic technique and singing direct onto the mic, you may have mixed responses. 4th improvement - optogate on open mics (but not the lead vocalists). They will only open when the singer is close proximity to the mic and are a lot more reliable than audio threshold gates. 5th improvement - use screens of shame. Drummer and cab shields can help prevent bleed to your open mics. 6th improvement - go silent stage and inears (appreciate there's a cost outlay here... but avoid 5th and go here... although you may still want the 5th for the drummer. The cymbals bleed everywhere. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted September 4, 2023 Author Share Posted September 4, 2023 Thanks Russ. So nothing i can do 😂. I guess only 1. Is an option, and try as i might i cant get some of them to remember to even plug their mics in, let along have any real technique. On larger stages it's not such a problem, but we have been on a few stages really best suited to Trio’s lately and so all on top of each other. Ive started muting the mics of two of the occasional singers, but its then on me to un mute them for the relevant songs, and id rather leave them live so the mix doesn’t jump up slightly. Actually the drummer is the worst of the lot. Wont use IEM so has a large monitor, has the mic facing more towards the floor then his mouth, and due to him also drumming doesn't always get close to the mic. I dont think its too bad out front (i guess its always been like this anyway), but since i started to record directly off the XR18 its really noticeable when i solo the tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 Headset mic for the drummer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted September 4, 2023 Author Share Posted September 4, 2023 1 minute ago, EBS_freak said: Headset mic for the drummer? Totally refuses to put anything on his head. He has his reasons (medical mainly), but is still a bit traditional when it comes to gear and prefers the old teachings 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 Just worth noting - this is why digital desks rock. With recordings, you can see where your short falls are. If you are having difficulty mixing tracks from the recordings, you can see why you are having trouble live. It’ll be the cymbals - (think harsh treble) and you can’t separate it from the vocals! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said: Totally refuses to put anything on his head. He has his reasons (medical mainly), but is still a bit traditional when it comes to gear and prefers the old teachings 🙄 Throat mic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted September 4, 2023 Author Share Posted September 4, 2023 1 hour ago, EBS_freak said: Throat mic! No mic 😎😇 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 Assuming you're only running the board and not playing as well you've got to ride the sliders. If not then you've got to hire someone to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted September 4, 2023 Author Share Posted September 4, 2023 2 hours ago, EBS_freak said: Just worth noting - this is why digital desks rock. With recordings, you can see where your short falls are. If you are having difficulty mixing tracks from the recordings, you can see why you are having trouble live. It’ll be the cymbals - (think harsh treble) and you can’t separate it from the vocals! Im not having issues mixing the tracks afterwards, just wasnt aware there was so much bleed and trying to get it lower. In fact it’s very easy to get rid of most of the bleed in Logic if i wanted to. When i go out front for sound check it sounds great, so it’s not really an issue live as far as i can hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted September 4, 2023 Author Share Posted September 4, 2023 17 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said: Assuming you're only running the board and not playing as well you've got to ride the sliders. If not then you've got to hire someone to do so. Nah, it’s fine. Most bands i go to see dont have engineers out front and sound great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 Just thought - you can change up where band members and noisy things are. I always have the kit off to the side, furthest from the lead vocalist. Any amps can be on their backs pointing up at the roof (Springsteen style) or at 90 degrees to the mics, pointing off stage and away from mics. You can then mic amps and put a bit through PA if necessary, just for better coverage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLOYDWT Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 Shure KSM8s and Neumann KMS104s/5s are the best mics I've found for rejecting unwanted off-axis sound in live situations. They aren't cheap, but the odd deal can be found on eBay; I would struggle to go back to mics like SM58s now; much too much like hard work with anything less than flawless mic technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 9 hours ago, EBS_freak said: optogate New one on me. 7 - Grateful Dead 2nd mic taped to first wired opposite polarity into the desk. Reminds singist they better sing into one or the other or they won't be heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 Highpass all mics, aside from kickdrum, as high as you can get away with. Defo get all stage monitor amps pointed at owners' heads but not up mic pattern window. Stage volume will evaporate like nobodies business. Stop letting anyone freehand their mic if they can't control where it's pointing, front AND back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 Thanks for the suggestions. I do high pass all the mic’s quite high and it does help a bit. Looking back at my first post i think i should have asked ‘do you deal with it’. Im not sure it’s really an issue for our sort of gigs. Im sure all bands at this level will be getting this, its not so noticeable on the night and i suppose the overall mix can take this in to account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 Russ as usual has spoilt our fun by rationally listing all the options It's pretty clear from your own comments so far that the issues are essentially the human failings of your band mates. Unless things are going catastrophically wrong they aren't interested in what they see as unimportant. we all know that nagging doesn't work. It's frustrating but I've always found in my bands that once they've reached a certain level any interest in improving any aspect of their performances starts to wain. Any suggestion of improvement is likely to be taken as personal criticism rather than help. What you might be able to do with the X18 is to record all their individual channels and play them back to them individually so they can hear how much backline is bleeding through their vocal mics. Do it quietly one at a time starting with the most committed/engaged band member. I showed our singer the meter levels in their mic when she was standing at the desk with me and that helped the penny drop about what I meant by bleed, I'll let her tackle the guitarist for me. If they hear the problem and they are being lost in someone else's sound they are going to be motivated to find a solution. If they also notice they can't be heard at times they might want to fix at least that part of their mic technique. If you can say I was trying to mix the live performance for a recording and noticed this it might not be seen as looking for problems. The problem when a band member mixes is that they will only see you as a band member and an equal and resist accepting any technical expertise you might have. Equally if you are seen to be helping one band member in particular to sound better then a combination of curiosity and jealousy will make them want the same. As an aside I once had a singer whose response to any acoustic feedback was to move the mic further away from her mouth and then ask me to turn the gain up so she could be heard. Some people you can't help Anyway good luck with the wetware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 4 hours ago, Phil Starr said: Russ as usual has spoilt our fun by rationally listing all the options oops.... sorry...! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 On 04/09/2023 at 16:43, EBS_freak said: 4th improvement - optogate on open mics (but not the lead vocalists). They will only open when the singer is close proximity to the mic and are a lot more reliable than audio threshold gates. https://www.canford.co.uk/Products/58-011_OPTOGATE-PB-05M-OPTICAL-AUTOMATIC-MICROPHONE-SWITCH-Inline-case-mute Blimey! I'm sure they're really jolly good, dontcherknow, but at £165 each they would bloody need to be. It's an infra-red sensor (so the remote control for yer telly) and an on/off switch. Ten quids' worth of components, maybe £20 on a bad day. Someone's 'avin' a giraffe. Haven't Donner copied this design yet? And if not, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 (edited) If you shop at Canford, you deserve your wallet to be thraped Make your own for less than 20 quid if you feel so inclined! Edited September 5, 2023 by EBS_freak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 Apologies if that came over a bit snarky. I just find it weird when people bemoan the pricing of a product. As an example, your average mic comprises of less components than the Optogate, manufactured in vastly higher numbers and yet people will quite happily pay a lot of money for them. Even the budget mics from China are vastly overpriced compared to their construction costs. Yet a niche product that doesn't get produced in anywhere near the numbers and will have nowhere near the profit margin gets seen as too expensive. If you use one, you'll see they are worth every penny when you see how much gain you can recover before feedback because it's actively closing off the unused mics that would be otherwise just be contributing bleed. Anyway, £111 at DV247. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 The plastic cased version is a fair bit less expensive than the one linked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 46 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: Anyway, £111 at DV247 Not that I can find with their dodgy search facility. Optogate, nada zip zilch. Microphone gate, likewise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 Try PB-05E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.