Chopthebass Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 I've seen Furman conditioners mentioned quite a few times on BW but never actually known what they do. I'm reasonable technical but can someone explain what they do, and when they are used? I saw them mentioned recently regarding problems with a DB750. Now I'm about to buy one of these Agi's so I'm interested! Cheers Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 From the horse's mouth [url="http://www.furmansound.com/page.php?div=01&id=WHY_PWR"]Furmansound.com[/url]. The consensus seems to be that these are not actually necessary in the UK as the UK supply is fairly "clean", whereas US power supplies are not. Note that if it's just "surge protection" that you want then there are many much simpler (and cheaper) devices available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='BOD2' post='49826' date='Aug 23 2007, 09:58 PM']The consensus seems to be that these are not actually necessary in the UK as the UK supply is fairly "clean", whereas US power supplies are not.[/quote] But the power supply may not be so good if you are gigging on a boat, playing anywhere else running off a generator, in a building which has a dodgy power supply or wiring or doing a gig that coincides with half-time in the cup final, when the whole country puts the kettle on. Then you might just benefit from using a power conditioner. The Hi-fi world claims that an improved power supply gives better clarity, tone and weight to the sound. They might be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='chris_b' post='49907' date='Aug 24 2007, 02:36 AM']The Hi-fi world claims that an improved power supply gives better clarity, tone and weight to the sound. They might be right.[/quote] They're the last people I'd listen to! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodaxe Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote]The Hi-fi world claims that an improved power supply gives better clarity, tone and weight to the sound. They might be right.[/quote] [url="http://www.gcaudio.com/products/reviews/infojpsac.html"]Yeah, right[/url] US$1500 for a mains lead? Oddly enough a quick Google for the phrase "Optimized Field Matrix" seems to result in hits solely on the manufacturer's website - a bit like Warwick's mysterious "Carolena" wood Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='49917' date='Aug 24 2007, 07:00 AM']They're the last people I'd listen to! Alex[/quote] Except for the fact that I tried a (Hifi) mains conditioner on my Ampeg SVP-PRO, and it worked wonders. Too big and heavy for gigging, but it gets used for recording... Experimentation is the key, provided you a) already have something similar or have access to one to try out. Then you can decide for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopthebass Posted August 24, 2007 Author Share Posted August 24, 2007 Thanks guys. So, if I get a gig on a boat or powered from a generator, are you saying that the voltage or current can fluctuate and that's why you need a conditioner in those circumstances? And you mention about USA mains - does this spike, and is that what the conditioner protects against? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Man Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 I use one as I find the power at festivals can be iffy at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOD2 Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='Chopthebass' post='49961' date='Aug 24 2007, 09:31 AM']Thanks guys. So, if I get a gig on a boat or powered from a generator, are you saying that the voltage or current can fluctuate and that's why you need a conditioner in those circumstances? And you mention about USA mains - does this spike, and is that what the conditioner protects against?[/quote] "Surge protectors" are used to protect against spikes. These are cheaper devices, although most "power conditioners" will also include surge protection. A power conditioner removes "noise" from the mains supply. In this context "noise" is more subtle variations in the voltage as opposed to spikes are surges which can be quite brutal. If you think of the AC supply as a sine wave (whether or not you can remember what that is will probably depend on how long ago you left school ) then "noise" can be thought of as small jagged lines superimosed on and distorting the smooth curve of the sine wave. A power conditioner should remove this and restore the smooth sine wave. For "temporary" mains supplies (e.g. generators, outdoor festivals etc.) there is more chance of noise on the mains supply whereas standard indoor mains supplies in the UK should be quite stable. So if you play outdoors a lot then there is more of a case for a power conditioner - although for best results all band equipment and not just the bass should go through one. The big debate is how much audible difference you will notice with conditioned versus normal mains supply. Hi fi buffs will tell you there is a big difference. I've never A/B'd this so I have no idea. I suspect the difference might not be that noticable in a live situation, given all the other variables that come into play, but it might be useful in a studio. At the end of the day you pays your money..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='49917' date='Aug 24 2007, 07:00 AM']They're the last people I'd listen to![/quote] When it comes to tone and the "sound" of music they (the Hi-fi world) are definitely people I would listen to. Read what they have to say, think about it, try it for yourself and then make your own judgement. I have heard a Furman Power Factor Pro in use and the end result was an improvement on the 13amp plug in the wall. That proved to me that power conditioners can work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='BOD2' post='50061' date='Aug 24 2007, 12:16 PM']The big debate is how much audible difference you will notice with conditioned versus normal mains supply. Hi fi buffs will tell you there is a big difference. I've never A/B'd this so I have no idea. I suspect the difference might not be that noticable in a live situation, given all the other variables that come into play, but it might be useful in a studio.[/quote] I doubt that power conditioners will improve the live or recorded tonal qualities of Status Quo, Punk, Metal or Grunge bands, but with the current push towards Hi-fi and transparent tone in some quarters you might find power conditioners filling a role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopthebass Posted August 24, 2007 Author Share Posted August 24, 2007 Many thanks guys, particularly BOD2. I understand now and probably don't need one. What a great forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='chris_b' post='50066' date='Aug 24 2007, 12:23 PM']When it comes to tone and the "sound" of music they (the Hi-fi world) are definitely people I would listen to.[/quote] You'd be far better served by learning about pro sound and audio engineering. A huge amount of the audiophile market is driven by snake oil sellers and psychoacoustics, supported by the magazines whose revenue stream is driven by the advertisers of said snake oil. The majority of power conditioners should not be used with high power amps as they have insufficient current capacity. A properly designed amp will not benefit from an external power conditioner as its own power supply should deal with all the filtering and buffering of the mains supply. If you use any digital gear it would be wise to protect it with a simple surge protected power strip, though this is much less important for analogue electronics. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='50179' date='Aug 24 2007, 02:51 PM']You'd be far better served by learning about pro sound and audio engineering. A huge amount of the audiophile market is driven by snake oil sellers and psychoacoustics, supported by the magazines whose revenue stream is driven by the advertisers of said snake oil. The majority of power conditioners should not be used with high power amps as they have insufficient current capacity. A properly designed amp will not benefit from an external power conditioner as its own power supply should deal with all the filtering and buffering of the mains supply. If you use any digital gear it would be wise to protect it with a simple surge protected power strip, though this is much less important for analogue electronics. Alex[/quote] No. I'm better served by using my own ears and judgement... which is what I said in part of the post that you didn't quote. Sorry, but I don't buy this "snake oil" stuff. People have posted on this topic to say that they have heard improvements when using power conditioners. Nuff said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 [quote name='chris_b' post='50249' date='Aug 24 2007, 04:31 PM']No. I'm better served by using my own ears and judgement... which is what I said in part of the post that you didn't quote.[/quote] Well maybe I wasn't disagreeing with using your ears then! My point was that much of the hi-fi world bases its views on anecdotal evidence, pseudo science and poorly conducted testing, whilst the pro and DIY audio world tends to use far more solid scientific analysis and rigorous testing. In other words, if you're going to "read what they have to say, think about it, try it for yourself and then make your own judgement" do so based on more accurate information. If you want to think about how a power conditioner affects your tone, find out how an amp transforms the AC mains into the DC voltage on the power transistor rails... This website is quite informative: [url="http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm"]http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm[/url] Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 [quote name='alexclaber' post='50179' date='Aug 24 2007, 02:51 PM']A properly designed amp will not benefit from an external power conditioner as its own power supply should deal with all the filtering and buffering of the mains supply.[/quote] i'm no expert, but that's what i would have presumed. i'm curious as to how a mains supply that deviates from a true sine wave would affect an amplifier - surely the power supply in the amplifier is going to be rectifying the sinusoidal main supply into smothed dc anyway ? enlighten me folks !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 [quote name='ahpook' post='50595' date='Aug 25 2007, 04:28 PM']i'm curious as to how a mains supply that deviates from a true sine wave would affect an amplifier - surely the power supply in the amplifier is going to be rectifying the sinusoidal main supply into smothed dc anyway ?[/quote] I'm no expert either, but, if you buy a perfectly good quality bass, why is there a whole industry selling replacement pickups, electrics etc? Surely the bass has been sold with pickups? It seems that there are areas where the original parts can be improved. I would imagine that the power sections of amps are designed to work within fairly narrow parameters, in the interests of controlling cost. As mentioned earlier you can be in several situations where the power supply will not be as good as it should be. Power conditioners can help in those situations. If an amp had as good a power supply as a power conditioner I would think that its price would be several hundred pounds higher. Manufacturers all always looking to trim costs so I reckon tolerances will be shaved down to the minimum. What it means to you is that there is a piece of equipment out there which can improve your sound and can protect your equipment. It's down to your equipment, your ears, your priorities and the style of music you play. The improvement may be negligible or significant, you have to decide. I don't believe in "snake oil". My experience of using one on a gig in an old boat house by the Thames is that I have heard a power conditioner improve my sound. I still don't own one but a lot of people on this forum do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I own one (well, actually it might be a power distributor with circuit breaker - must check, not really sure of the difference) but I'm planning on taking my power amp out of it from now on. The manual even seems to suggest it, although it doesn't explicitly advise against using power conditioners. It seems like the two potential benefits of using a power conditioner are: 1. equipment protection, 2. improved performance. The debate seems to be about whether power conditioners can improve your equipment's performance. While not understanding the physics well enough to really make an informed decision about how it affects the rest of my equipment, I do understand the idea that the maximum amount of current that can pass through a power conditioner might be smaller the amount required by a power amp - thereby hindering the power amp's performance. And I also understand that one of the functions of a power amp is to do what ahpook describes above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 27, 2007 Share Posted August 27, 2007 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='50179' date='Aug 24 2007, 09:51 AM']You'd be far better served by learning about pro sound and audio engineering. A huge amount of the audiophile market is driven by snake oil sellers and psychoacoustics, supported by the magazines whose revenue stream is driven by the advertisers of said snake oil.[/quote] Quite right. If the esteemed Mr P.T. Barnum were alive today ("[i]No one ever lost a buck overestimating the intelligence of the average person."[/i]) he would be selling $1,000 per foot cables and $200 power conditioners. Most power conditioners offer no more protection or 'conditioning' than is already present within your amp and other gear. Edited August 27, 2007 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted September 1, 2007 Share Posted September 1, 2007 (edited) there's an interesting article [url="http://hiddenwires.co.uk/resourcesarticles2006/articles20061201-01.html"]here[/url], although it is written by someone who works for furman, who make power conditioners. Edited September 1, 2007 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goingdownslow Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 Also worth a read:- [url="http://sonido.uchile.cl/articulos/tenbiggestliesaudio.pdf"]http://sonido.uchile.cl/articulos/tenbiggestliesaudio.pdf[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 (edited) [quote name='goingdownslow' post='54982' date='Sep 3 2007, 09:45 PM']Also worth a read:- [url="http://sonido.uchile.cl/articulos/tenbiggestliesaudio.pdf"]http://sonido.uchile.cl/articulos/tenbiggestliesaudio.pdf[/url][/quote] strong words Edited September 3, 2007 by ahpook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazm Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 [quote name='goingdownslow' post='54982' date='Sep 3 2007, 08:45 PM']Also worth a read:- [url="http://sonido.uchile.cl/articulos/tenbiggestliesaudio.pdf"]http://sonido.uchile.cl/articulos/tenbiggestliesaudio.pdf[/url][/quote] Superb. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr gig Posted September 4, 2007 Share Posted September 4, 2007 [quote name='Chopthebass' post='49801' date='Aug 23 2007, 08:44 PM']I've seen Furman conditioners mentioned quite a few times on BW but never actually known what they do. I'm reasonable technical but can someone explain what they do, and when they are used? I saw them mentioned recently regarding problems with a DB750. Now I'm about to buy one of these Agi's so I'm interested! Cheers Ian[/quote] A very easy way (and a good way of making the supply more safe) is to use a transformer rated at 240 volts in and 240 volts out - i.e. 1:1 ratio. That will clean out just about any mains borne rubbish that exists and help protect you due to the way they are wired. (I won't go into the tech stuff here). Obviously, It needs to be rated above the wattage of the gear you use. They should be available from Ebay or other suplliers under mains isolating transformers. Even a new one should be under a hundred quid for a 1KW continuously rated transformer. A big transformer acts as a high frequency filter. The one in the power supply of your amp is already doing that to some extent, but it can't get it all. mr gig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopthebass Posted September 4, 2007 Author Share Posted September 4, 2007 [quote name='mr gig' post='55067' date='Sep 4 2007, 02:05 AM']A very easy way (and a good way of making the supply more safe) is to use a transformer rated at 240 volts in and 240 volts out - i.e. 1:1 ratio. That will clean out just about any mains borne rubbish that exists and help protect you due to the way they are wired. (I won't go into the tech stuff here). Obviously, It needs to be rated above the wattage of the gear you use. They should be available from Ebay or other suplliers under mains isolating transformers. Even a new one should be under a hundred quid for a 1KW continuously rated transformer. A big transformer acts as a high frequency filter. The one in the power supply of your amp is already doing that to some extent, but it can't get it all. mr gig[/quote] That's interesting. I've never heard of 1:1 ratio transformers - I'll have a browse on ebay. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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