Echo or Delay on 60s Songs?

[Chienmortbb]

I play in a 60s/70s covers band and on some songs I feel like they are double tracking by adding a copy of the lead vocal delayed. 
The Searchers seem to have this on Needles and Pins and When You Walk in the  Room. Or is it two similar voices at slightly different times. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

Seems like a definite possibility. It's a very common recording trick to fill out vocals. I've used it many times myself. 

[Dad3353]

22 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

I play in a 60s/70s covers band and on some songs I feel like they are double tracking by adding a copy of the lead vocal delayed. 
The Searchers seem to have this on Needles and Pins and When You Walk in the  Room. Or is it two similar voices at slightly different times. 

 

It was standard practice (and still is, I believe, in many studios...) to record the lead singer twice, and mix the two takes together. Most decent singers were able to sing their lines pretty much perfectly, so they can be very hard to distinguish between them. It was also common, but more easy to detect, to use an echo chamber of some sort. The idea is to 'fatten up' the vocals. These days, software would be the more likely way to get the effect wanted. Guitar tracks would often have similar treatment, for the same reasons. 

[Velarian]

I think it was quite common to use tape echo in the 60’s. 
 

This article: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/doubling-thicker-sounds?amp , contains the following: -

 

“The traditional option is known as 'artificial double tracking', or simply 'ADT'. This was essentially an extension of the simpler 'slapback delay' effect heard on countless Elvis and rockabilly records, whereby a delayed version of a vocal was added to the original. The shorter the distance between the tape machine's record and playback heads and the higher the tape speed, the shorter the delay time was, and the more it began to resemble a double-track. Unless the machine suffered from excessive wow and flutter, though, it didn't emulate the natural pitch variations between tracks.

 

The engineers at Abbey Road created the more familiar ADT effect (favoured by John Lennon in particular, and heard on many Beatles records) by making manual varispeed adjustments to short tape delays. The speed changes resulted in the small pitch and time variations that made this effect sound much fuller and richer. And by hooking up two tape machines so that the relative delay between the two could be adjusted down to zero or even be reversed, tape phasing or flanging was produced, with more extreme speed variations creating a more trippy ADT effect.”

[Chienmortbb]

So in a live situation a delay would help but never quite recreate the effect on the record? My mixer allows me to add delay but how much would help and would some form of echo/reverb be better?

[Dad3353]

7 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

So in a live situation a delay would help but never quite recreate the effect on the record? My mixer allows me to add delay but how much would help and would some form of echo/reverb be better?

 

It depends a lot on the venue (whether there is a natural echo or delay from the ceiling and walls...), so would normally be dosed per venue. Be aware that, if there is speech between the songs, delay/reverb is rather more of a hindrance, so should be avoided at that time. Ideally, someone at the desk would be dosing any Fx in real time, but this relies on having a sound tech, preferably with knowledge of the repertoire. As usual, the standard advice of 'less is more' applies; better too little, usually, than too much. The answer, really, is 'a lemon : suck it and see'.
And 'No, it won't create the same Fx as the recording', but is that important..? If it is, play the recording and mime/lip-sync..!

Edited December 28, 2022 by Dad3353

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

nd 'No, it won't create the same Fx as the recording', but is that important..? If it is, play the recording and mime/lip-sync..!

No, it is not that important. Just trying to make our sound a tad more authentic. Thanks for the advice, by the way.

[T-Bay]

The KMA delay/ reverb pedal is amazing for doing just this.It is very flexible and takes a little while to dial it in exactly where you want it but worth the effort.

[Dad3353]

30 minutes ago, T-Bay said:

The KMA delay/ reverb pedal ...

 

This doesn't have an Xlr input for a mic, though, so could only be used as an insert at the console. It might be difficult to use the stomp-switch in that case. There are vocal pedals for this use, though, that allow the singer to control the Fx him/her self. Look at the TC Helicon 'Critical Mass', for instance, for doubling up the vocals.

[T-Bay]

53 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

This doesn't have an Xlr input for a mic, though, so could only be used as an insert at the console. It might be difficult to use the stomp-switch in that case. There are vocal pedals for this use, though, that allow the singer to control the Fx him/her self. Look at the TC Helicon 'Critical Mass', for instance, for doubling up the vocals.

Nah, just use one of these: https://www.americanmusical.com/audio-technica-cp8201-mic-impedance-matching-transformer/p/AUD-CP8201. Being doing it for ages and works a treat. You can use it for any pedal and get some proper weird effects should you desire.

Edited December 28, 2022 by T-Bay

[Dad3353]

15 minutes ago, T-Bay said:

Nah, just use one of these: https://www.americanmusical.com/audio-technica-cp8201-mic-impedance-matching-transformer/p/AUD-CP8201. Being doing it for ages and works a treat. You can use it for any pedal and get some proper weird effects should you desire.

 

Good luck with a condenser mic with that. The Fx stomp box goes to a DI, then, I suppose, to get to the desk..?

[MoonBassAlpha]

On 28/12/2022 at 18:20, Dad3353 said:

 

Good luck with a condenser mic with that. The Fx stomp box goes to a DI, then, I suppose, to get to the desk..?

For live, will mostly be using a dynamic mic, I suspect