Vintage Fenders

[Mrbigstuff]

1 hour ago, bigthumb said:

BassBros '63 Jazz bass 😍

 

And I'm only £18k short of the asking price too! 

Sounds silly saying this. But given it has a period correct case as well it’s not a bad price compared to others. 

[bigthumb]

12 minutes ago, Mrbigstuff said:

Sounds silly saying this. But given it has a period correct case as well it’s not a bad price compared to others. 

 

I don't think it's silly at all. I'd be all over that if I had the funds. It has to be one of the bast examples I've seen and BB's prices are always sensible. The '73 stripped Jazz is a beauty and well priced too and being it's my YoB I'm hoping it sells soon as I could get into trouble! 

[Mrbigstuff]

9 hours ago, bigthumb said:

 

I don't think it's silly at all. I'd be all over that if I had the funds. It has to be one of the bast examples I've seen and BB's prices are always sensible. The '73 stripped Jazz is a beauty and well priced too and being it's my YoB I'm hoping it sells soon as I could get into trouble! 

Only saying that because £18.5k is still a lot of money for a bass guitar!

[Burns-bass]

37 minutes ago, Mrbigstuff said:

Only saying that because £18.5k is still a lot of money for a bass guitar!

It’s utterly preposterous for a mass produced, factory built item. Fender could build something the same (or better) using the same materials pretty much.

[Rick's Fine '52]

11 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

It’s utterly preposterous for a mass produced, factory built item. Fender could build something the same (or better) using the same materials pretty much.

Shame they haven’t though. 

[Burns-bass]

39 minutes ago, Rick's Fine '52 said:

Shame they haven’t though. 

Why would they?

 

The vintage mania is what keeps Fender relevant and cool. Reality is a modern Fender is a better instrument for gigging than a vintage one. From a purely practical point of view. 

[Mrbigstuff]

46 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

It’s utterly preposterous for a mass produced, factory built item. Fender could build something the same (or better) using the same materials pretty much.

If that were possible surely someone else would have done? Alleva Copollo, Moolon, Olinto all try but miss the mark.

we can discount the ‘aging process’ as being a reason for “the sound” because the jap lawsuit stuff doesn’t sound as good, neither do similar period Gibsons or rickenbackers.

 

But are the same materials available? Where do the trees grow and the wood cut? Are they old stored timber or grown in the same climate as what Fender used at the time? Tree felling is more strictly regulated now than it was in the 60s and transportation across continents more expensive. 
 

What about the pickup copper or magnets? Can they be produced the same way now?

 

I assume nobody will ever know?

[Burns-bass]

8 minutes ago, Mrbigstuff said:

If that were possible surely someone else would have done? Alleva Copollo, Moolon, Olinto all try but miss the mark.

we can discount the ‘aging process’ as being a reason for “the sound” because the jap lawsuit stuff doesn’t sound as good, neither do similar period Gibsons or rickenbackers.

 

But are the same materials available? Where do the trees grow and the wood cut? Are they old stored timber or grown in the same climate as what Fender used at the time? Tree felling is more strictly regulated now than it was in the 60s and transportation across continents more expensive. 
 

What about the pickup copper or magnets? Can they be produced the same way now?

 

I assume nobody will ever know?

I don’t think vintage basses really have a much better sound. I love my vintage bass (less for the sound and more for what it means to me). 
 

I’m not a vintage bass hater. But I do think £18.5k for the 63 Jazz Bass is crazy. It’s not a Jaco-style 62’ slab board or a stack knob. It doesn’t even have the mutes. 
 

Stick it through an amp and it’ll sound the same. I speak from experience (they really do!)

 

Or, to put it another way, if nobody ever knew you owned it or know how much it was worth, would this bass be worth £18.5k to the person?

 

Vintage instruments at this level are speculative investments or status symbols. That’s all good. 

[Woodinblack]

45 minutes ago, Mrbigstuff said:

If that were possible surely someone else would have done? Alleva Copollo, Moolon, Olinto all try but miss the mark.

 

I think they would hit the mark pretty well if the person playing was blindfolded.

 

I have heard many vintage fenders, some are great, some are dogs, most are pretty good (I guess most of the bad ones have been thrown away in the 70s), but if you didn't know it was a vintage fender, it wouldn't sound special either way.

 

They sound good to some because they are being listened to with their eyes and heads. 

 

Youre paying for a rarity not a sound.

 

[Mrbigstuff]

6 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

I don’t think vintage basses really have a much better sound. I love my vintage bass (less for the sound and more for what it means to me). 
 

I’m not a vintage bass hater. But I do think £18.5k for the 63 Jazz Bass is crazy. It’s not a Jaco-style 62’ slab board or a stack knob. It doesn’t even have the mutes. 
 

Stick it through an amp and it’ll sound the same. I speak from experience (they really do!)

 

Or, to put it another way, if nobody ever knew you owned it or know how much it was worth, would this bass be worth £18.5k to the person?

 

Vintage instruments at this level are speculative investments or status symbols. That’s all good. 

 

6 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I think they would hit the mark pretty well if the person playing was blindfolded.

 

I have heard many vintage fenders, some are great, some are dogs, most are pretty good (I guess most of the bad ones have been thrown away in the 70s), but if you didn't know it was a vintage fender, it wouldn't sound special either way.

 

They sound good to some because they are being listened to with their eyes and heads. 

 

Youre paying for a rarity not a sound.

 

I disagree because I believe i can hear a difference, even on the clips Andy Baxter puts out.
If there wasn’t, are all those professionals who play them live and in the studio putting up with the maintenance and potentially devaluing their asset for nothing? 
if you do believe it’s a placebo, more power to you because you can buy a much nicer instrument or custom shop copy for a lot less.

[bigthumb]

£18k Is a crazy amount of money for a guitar but if I was lucky enough to be in position to buy that Jazz bass I would. Yes you can buy many much better basses for that kind of money but it's not the point.

I saw an advert for a mk1 Ford Escort being sold for £25k, some for much more. My £2k Vauxhall Astra is a much better car in every way but it's not a 50yo very cool and desirable car to certain people. 

[Burns-bass]

51 minutes ago, Mrbigstuff said:

 

I disagree because I believe i can hear a difference, even on the clips Andy Baxter puts out.
If there wasn’t, are all those professionals who play them live and in the studio putting up with the maintenance and potentially devaluing their asset for nothing? 
if you do believe it’s a placebo, more power to you because you can buy a much nicer instrument or custom shop copy for a lot less.

Guitars sound different, that’s true. Vintage basses often have lower output pickups (mine do, at least).

 

To some extent I do believe it’s a placebo. Particularly when the amp, effects or studio can be used to alter and augment the sound. One of the most famous, Guy Pratt, had the vintage electronics in his vintage Fender swapped for EMGs didn’t he?

 

I’d had a glass of wine yesterday, but what I wouldn’t want is someone to spend £18k on a bass thinking it was imbued with some magic. (Or assuming it’s so rare and they’d be able to easily sell it for £18.5k in the future - because that’s really not going to happen.)

[Reggaebass]

Imo the 60s and early 70s basses do sound different, I’ve got 6 precisions and 8 jazzes and nothing plays and feels like a good vintage fender , to me they also have a history and certain nostalgia, I’ve also never had a so called dog, I guess there are some bad ones out there and some are better made than others just like they are now but I think a lot of that is just bad publicity from the fender haters who’ve probably never even played one , they are crazy prices now and I wouldn’t drop 18k on one unless it was love at first sight 😁which hasn’t happened yet, I don’t think the prices will go down either so still investable 

[ossyrocks]

3 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

Imo the 60s and early 70s basses do sound different, I’ve got 6 precisions and 8 jazzes and nothing plays and feels like a good vintage fender , to me they also have a history and certain nostalgia, I’ve also never had a so called dog, I guess there are some bad ones out there and some are better made than others just like they are now but I think a lot of that is just bad publicity from the fender haters who’ve probably never even played one , they are crazy prices now and I wouldn’t drop 18k on one unless it was love at first sight 😁which hasn’t happened yet, I don’t think the prices will go down either so still investable 

 

I also agree with Tony that the older ones sound different. I've had various modern Fenders, standard, AVRI, CS, MIJ. My favourite "modern" one was a MIJ PB62-RI from 1987, it was exceptional.

But none of them played, felt or sounded like my vintage ones. My current favourite squeeze is my latest '73 Precision, it's just sublime, but I'm still in the honeymoon period, and the others are feeling a little neglected, but I do still love them all.

When I get on stage with one of my vintage basses, it just feels right for me, I'm not working hard to find the tone in my head, it's right there, every time.

 

Rob

[Reggaebass]

I’m glad in a way that don’t prefer the wider neck on the early 60s precisions or I would be in a bit of trouble 😁, although I do have a bit of a liking for a few 66s I’ve seen at the moment 

[rwillett]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

Guitars sound different, that’s true. Vintage basses often have lower output pickups (mine do, at least).

 

To some extent I do believe it’s a placebo. Particularly when the amp, effects or studio can be used to alter and augment the sound. One of the most famous, Guy Pratt, had the vintage electronics in his vintage Fender swapped for EMGs didn’t he?

 

I’d had a glass of wine yesterday, but what I wouldn’t want is someone to spend £18k on a bass thinking it was imbued with some magic. (Or assuming it’s so rare and they’d be able to easily sell it for £18.5k in the future - because that’s really not going to happen.)

 

Is the Mona Lisa worth the estimated $500m that I believe it's insured for? Not to me but I suspect some multi billionaire would pay that for a load of wood, canvas and paint. 

 

Is a McClaren P1 worth £20m quid for some shaped, cast and machined metal. Not to me but we know people pay that for it. 

 

Something is worth what people will pay for it. The reason they pay that is because they believe the object to have some intrinsic value, rarity, beauty, show off characteristics, or fabulous tone. 

 

Dave Gilmour flogged his early strats for a fortune and said he's got some equally nice new ones. I think he flogged them for charity so good for him.

 

Leo Fender built cheapish guitars that were designed to be made fairly cheaply and changed easily. I have no idea if pixie dust was involved but some people believe so. I'm not talented enough to know if they are mythical and fabulous nor rich enough to investigate these claims.

 

My most expensive musical instrument is my Macbook which wasn't cheap but gets used eight hours a day and in about two years time will be replaced by another equally expensive Macbook. Depreciation is great. 

 

I really like my 97 Fender Jazz and my 87 Strat and my 89 Tele but are they magical? Not with my fingers but perhaps in 50 years time they will be. I'll leave them to my kids. 

 

I'm not knocking anybody who wants an old Fender, you can spend your money any way you chose to. I'd love to play an old Fender and perhaps if some kind person at the SW Bass Bash allows me, I may just sit quietly in the corner, my dunce cap on, and tootle around on an old Fender and see what the fuss is all about. 

 

I collect old maps, I have some over 200 years old which are quite valuable. Certainly late 60s, early 70s Fender priced. They are basically some old paper and ink. Who's the real fool here 😊

 

Rob

[Burns-bass]

23 minutes ago, rwillett said:

 

Is the Mona Lisa worth the estimated $500m that I believe it's insured for? Not to me but I suspect some multi billionaire would pay that for a load of wood, canvas and paint. 

 

Is a McClaren P1 worth £20m quid for some shaped, cast and machined metal. Not to me but we know people pay that for it. 

 

Something is worth what people will pay for it. The reason they pay that is because they believe the object to have some intrinsic value, rarity, beauty, show off characteristics, or fabulous tone. 

 

Dave Gilmour flogged his early strats for a fortune and said he's got some equally nice new ones. I think he flogged them for charity so good for him.

 

Leo Fender built cheapish guitars that were designed to be made fairly cheaply and changed easily. I have no idea if pixie dust was involved but some people believe so. I'm not talented enough to know if they are mythical and fabulous nor rich enough to investigate these claims.

 

My most expensive musical instrument is my Macbook which wasn't cheap but gets used eight hours a day and in about two years time will be replaced by another equally expensive Macbook. Depreciation is great. 

 

I really like my 97 Fender Jazz and my 87 Strat and my 89 Tele but are they magical? Not with my fingers but perhaps in 50 years time they will be. I'll leave them to my kids. 

 

I'm not knocking anybody who wants an old Fender, you can spend your money any way you chose to. I'd love to play an old Fender and perhaps if some kind person at the SW Bass Bash allows me, I may just sit quietly in the corner, my dunce cap on, and tootle around on an old Fender and see what the fuss is all about. 

 

I collect old maps, I have some over 200 years old which are quite valuable. Certainly late 60s, early 70s Fender priced. They are basically some old paper and ink. Who's the real fool here 😊

 

Rob

I’m not entirely sure what the point is here, but effectively you’re agreeing with me it seems.
 

That the primary reason for owning this is that someone else can’t.
 

That they’re status symbols and rarities accrued for their perceived value rather than any intrinsic quality.

 

This sort of thing is the apotheosis of vintage mania. 
 

I’m not on the sideline chucking stones, I’ve actively participated for years in the market. (Check my sales history!)

 

But, perhaps like some who has been released from a cult I can see how utterly bonkers it is. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Burns-bass

[rwillett]

My point is that valuation of scarce items is irrational.

 

its worth whatever someone will pay and that the worth of it is based on something  intangible as there is limited supply. When that happens all logic goes through the window. 

 

 

[Burns-bass]

2 minutes ago, rwillett said:

My point is that valuation of scarce items is irrational.

 

its worth whatever someone will pay and that the worth of it is based on something  intangible as there is limited supply. When that happens all logic goes through the window. 

 

 

That’s a truism, so yes I agree.

[Reggaebass]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

That the primary reason for owning this is that someone else can’t.
 

That they’re status symbols and rarities accrued for their perceived value rather than any intrinsic quality

That’s not the reasons I have them or anyone I know, I just like the whole vibe about them and enjoy playing them  ,but I do agree that some just buy them simply for their value 

[Woodinblack]

4 hours ago, Mrbigstuff said:

I disagree because I believe i can hear a difference, even on the clips Andy Baxter puts out.

 

Of course you can, they sound different. Put two 63 jazz basses next to each other and they will sound different to each other. Get another newer jazz bass with a pickup made to sound vintage and it will sound different.

The difference is whether there is something totally unique to them then you can play 10 basses blindfold and say say 'yes those 5 are vintage, and these 5 arent'. But you can't, I am sure that noone can. 

 

4 hours ago, Mrbigstuff said:

If there wasn’t, are all those professionals who play them live and in the studio putting up with the maintenance and potentially devaluing their asset for nothing? 

 

Because they love that bass and they can afford it, they are players not collectors, but I think that will tail off with the current prices, the players will start selling off their old basses and just taking cheaper, less nickable instruments on the road, because that makes sense. Many people stopped taking expensive instruments out, as mentioned, david gilmour sold his rare strats for charity and plays new ones, he still sounds exactly the same. 

Even if you 100% believed that a vintage fender came up with a totally unique sound that nothing else could make, you can't possibly beleive you could hear that when it was gigging when half the time you can't tell if it is a bass or not!

[Mrbigstuff]

4 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

Guitars sound different, that’s true. Vintage basses often have lower output pickups (mine do, at least).

 

To some extent I do believe it’s a placebo. Particularly when the amp, effects or studio can be used to alter and augment the sound. One of the most famous, Guy Pratt, had the vintage electronics in his vintage Fender swapped for EMGs didn’t he?

 

I’d had a glass of wine yesterday, but what I wouldn’t want is someone to spend £18k on a bass thinking it was imbued with some magic. (Or assuming it’s so rare and they’d be able to easily sell it for £18.5k in the future - because that’s really not going to happen.)

True around the pickups although still an old model of EMGs. The same pickup in the Bass Centre reissues don’t come close to his real deal though. There was a tutor on here I had lessons with who had a 70s jazz with old Seymour Duncan’s and it still sounded like a typical 70 s fender jazz.

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Of course you can, they sound different. Put two 63 jazz basses next to each other and they will sound different to each other. Get another newer jazz bass with a pickup made to sound vintage and it will sound different.

The difference is whether there is something totally unique to them then you can play 10 basses blindfold and say say 'yes those 5 are vintage, and these 5 arent'. But you can't, I am sure that noone can. 

 

 

Because they love that bass and they can afford it, they are players not collectors, but I think that will tail off with the current prices, the players will start selling off their old basses and just taking cheaper, less nickable instruments on the road, because that makes sense. Many people stopped taking expensive instruments out, as mentioned, david gilmour sold his rare strats for charity and plays new ones, he still sounds exactly the same. 

Even if you 100% believed that a vintage fender came up with a totally unique sound that nothing else could make, you can't possibly beleive you could hear that when it was gigging when half the time you can't tell if it is a bass or not!

Yes the same model will sound a bit different but will have the same characteristics. 
They love the bass because it sounds good, not because it’s old. The sound to the audience might be no different (depending on scale of gig and chain involved) but the sound in the in ear mix will pickup on the nuances of a bass’s direct output.

 

I’ve played enough basses to know owning a vintage fender would be worth the money for me over a modern bass.