RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 If you're unsure of the' shop',why not go for rehearsal rooms for bands? (There are never enough of those) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='386728' date='Jan 20 2009, 09:00 PM']Turnkey in London was always my favourite music shop. You went in and they just had everything out from guitars to whole DAWs/sequencers that you could play on - didn't even need to ask the staff first. Spent so much money in there. I'm told they closed down or moved or something. [/quote] They went the same way as Soundcontrol,at around the same time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 [quote name='Prosebass' post='386648' date='Jan 20 2009, 08:04 PM']Set up as a Limited Company (its got lots of advantages your accountant will explain)[/quote] But make sure that you investigate being a Limited Liability Partnership (LLP) first - again, your accountant will explain. If you do it right, an LLP is far more flexible than a Ltd, cheaper to run, and can be just as tax-efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='382516' date='Jan 16 2009, 03:35 PM']Best time for a bank loan etc.[/quote] Um, haven't you read the papers recently? I've got friends whose businesses are thriving but despite this the benks are withdrawing their credit facilities. Sorry to be blunt - and I haven't read the posts above as I'm in a rush - but I was talking at the weekend to a guy who did the same thing and has just had to sell hos house to pay for it. Setting up a music shop now would represent the kind of hubris that has got banks and therefore the entire economy into trouble. Only spend the money if you can affors to lose it. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedontcarebear Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE' post='386779' date='Jan 20 2009, 09:34 PM']If you're unsure of the' shop',why not go for rehearsal rooms for bands? (There are never enough of those) [/quote] Practice rooms never really make much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE' post='386783' date='Jan 20 2009, 09:36 PM']They went the same way as Soundcontrol,at around the same time [/quote] Turnkey was part of Sound control....... Turnkey is now owned by PMT, along with some of the old Sound control branches.... this will become part of their on-line portfolio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='thedontcarebear' post='387123' date='Jan 21 2009, 08:33 AM']Practice rooms never really make much money.[/quote] +100 there is a definite lack of them..... but as stated above.... your never gonna make a decent living renting out space to musicians... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99ster Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='387121' date='Jan 21 2009, 08:31 AM']Um, haven't you read the papers recently? I've got friends whose businesses are thriving but despite this the benks are withdrawing their credit facilities. Sorry to be blunt - and I haven't read the posts above as I'm in a rush - but I was talking at the weekend to a guy who did the same thing and has just had to sell hos house to pay for it. Setting up a music shop now would represent the kind of hubris that has got banks and therefore the entire economy into trouble. Only spend the money if you can affors to lose it. Chris[/quote] +1 I'm afraid this can only 'end in tears'. I know of two people who have opened music/guitar shops that have eventually gone bust - leaving them with years of debt & misery. And that wasn't in the current economic climate(!) & before the internet really took hold. Traditional shop based retail is NOT what you want to start a business in! I bet you could walk into any 99% of small shops in the UK today & offer the owners £10K for their entire business & they would bite your hand off - just for a chance to walk away from it all. Sorry to be so negative - but IMHO this really is a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) Sorry Stuart, didn't notice that you were the OP. If you do it, all the best to you mate, but don't be fooled into thinking that the things musicians say they want in a shop are the things they actually want. Many businesses have failed as the result of 1) confusing enthusiasm and passion for a sound business case, and 2) placing too much importance on the opinions of potential customers as opposed to the actions of actual customers. The type of touchy-feely friendly music shops selling a wide range of new and used instruments and offering a chat and a coffee don't exist in great numbers any more for a reason, partly because of the way distributors (and banks) work, partly because of the web and ebay, but also because the business model is flawed given contemporary retail environment and buying behaviour. Before you do anything, talk to a lot of small business owners. Chris Edited January 21, 2009 by Beedster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 The 5 or so nice music shops near me do all the stuff people are talking about but in the last year I've probably spend just £150 in them - and most of that was piano books and Ukuleles (that's what my brothers got for their 50th birthday )... I may have spent just £20 on bass stuff in real shops ... So ... Maybe your questions are not the right ones .. I'd suggest you ask "What have you [b]actually bought[/b] from a real music shop in the last year?" Not a web shop, a real shop, by walking in and handing over hard cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman101 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 1) What do you look for in a music shop? I prefer to buy stuff from a shop because its more of an expierience if your buying a new bass. but id prefer a cheaper price, so try to match net prices closely. selling online would be good 2) What would you ideally like to see in a music shop? Id like to see quality things for bass such as nice strings and accessories, thick straps, strap locks, bass effects. 3) How far would you travel? Not too far, im a student, no car, no nothing , so 5 miles? maybe 10? 4) Am I mad to consider this? No, the much shop near me (ABC music in Hounslow) closed, and now i have no were to go to get stuff done, and i have to travel twice as far to another shop to get stuff done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote]I'm always surprised that the instruments hanging up in a lot of small shops are often not set up at all and would put non-savvy purchasers off, so it must be a unique selling point to have new & secondhand instruments that play. Boxed encores from Argos won't be able to compete with that.[/quote] +1. I love guitars as well as basses, I enjoy looking at them and I enjoy playing them. However 90% of guitars in stores are so poorly setup (and I have the best gear for me) that I have reached a point where I simply do not ask to try any, either because I'm not ready to buy, or because I know I'll barely be playing it for more than 3 seconds before I go 'ugh, this thing is [i]foul[/i]!' because of the setup. I'm actually somewhat enthralled by the idea of buying cheap-as-chips guitars that are made from well-made parts but poorly setup/arranged, and then setting them up to compare with the top few guitars that they are copies of. I reckon one would get a few more interested parties coming along if they realised that a store offered gear whose playing quality far surpassed those of any other store in the area, or even the region. When I think about all the small places I know that are thriving, they all offer some type of service that is not available anywhere else within the area that keeps the pennies rolling in even when sales are down. Buying guitars you can do online, but quality repairs/setups/re-frets etc/body work/custom luthiery isn't something that is (generally) done over the net. One place I went to offered a guaranteed setup. If you didn't like the setup after a couple of days/gigs you could take it back and he'd adjust it for you free of charge. Re: Bass Direct - Mark is a smart guy. He started with stuff that was totally exclusive to him until Bass Direct was off the ground. I'm no businessman but this seems to effectively draw anyone with an interest in said gear in Britain to his store. He's now recently started expanding the range he offers now that bassists are more familiar with the company. That, to me, would help keep competition to a minimum at the crucial beginning stages. Plus he's a great guy and loves just showing bassists what is actually available to them Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99ster Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='387186' date='Jan 21 2009, 09:47 AM']The 5 or so nice music shops near me do all the stuff people are talking about but in the last year I've probably spend just £150 in them - and most of that was piano books and Ukuleles (that's what my brothers got for their 50th birthday )... I may have spent just £20 on bass stuff in real shops ... So ... Maybe your questions are not the right ones .. I'd suggest you ask "What have you [b]actually bought[/b] from a real music shop in the last year?" Not a web shop, a real shop, by walking in and handing over hard cash.[/quote] +1000 on asking that question: "What have you [b]actually bought[/b] from a real music shop in the last year?" I've spent a small fortune (a LOT of money) on bass gear over the last few years - how much have I bought from an actual music shop? £100 at most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='99ster' post='387293' date='Jan 21 2009, 11:08 AM']+1000 on asking that question: "What have you [b]actually bought[/b] from a real music shop in the last year?" I've spent a small fortune (a LOT of money) on bass gear over the last few years - how much have I bought from an actual music shop? £100 at most.[/quote] I get nearly everything I need from a) Basschat, ebay and c) online suppliers who have stuff that the first two don't. The only things I have bought from a shop (i.e., real not virtual) in the last year were two books, which were impulse buys, and a set of EB strings, which was all they had in stock for bass and I didn't want to go to a rehearsal without a spare set. The latter were woefully overpriced and tonically dead, having sat in the store no doubt for a couple of years. Bottom line is, if you make a business case for music retail, a shop will nearly always be a far worse option that a website. Too many shops now simply serve as a place to try the options before buying far cheaper - and sometimes in far better condition and playability - online. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='387316' date='Jan 21 2009, 11:22 AM']I get nearly everything I need from a) Basschat, ebay and c) online suppliers who have stuff that the first two don't. The only things I have bought from a shop (i.e., real not virtual) in the last year were two books, which were impulse buys, and a set of EB strings, which was all they had in stock for bass and I didn't want to go to a rehearsal without a spare set. The latter were woefully overpriced and tonically dead, having sat in the store no doubt for a couple of years. Bottom line is, if you make a business case for music retail, a shop will nearly always be a far worse option that a website. Too many shops now simply serve as a place to try the options before buying far cheaper - and sometimes in far better condition and playability - online. Chris[/quote] This is a good point by Chris and cheap storage space ( or a garage and bedroom) is always going to be less than a shop in terms of rent / rates but setting up on-line trading and looking after a web-site is not easy. It is still essential as a "shop front" to have a web presence even with a traditional shop. The thing is everyone is going down the line of web-based business and all this will do is drive prices down and we will all end up buying everything from Thoman and if they haven't got it tough. As I said earlier a shop with living accommodation is the best bet if you are determined to have a "real" shop but you have to be realistic about it. A small shop costing say £7000 PA + rates and running costs means £10000 a year . With a markup of 50% you need to sell £15000 PA just to cover costs and £25000 to give a wage of £10,000. If you sell online the same £25,000 gives you £16,600 !!!! a big difference from £10,000 Don't let people put you off and the main thing you need is enthusiasm and commitment and if you are realistic, work you costs out properly and want it to succeed it will. But don't expect just to open your front door and watch the floods of people roll in as it won't happen. Most successful business owners are very single minded and put an enormous amount of work in and believe in what they are doing no matter what others may tell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Beedster' post='387121' date='Jan 21 2009, 08:31 AM']Um, haven't you read the papers recently? I've got friends whose businesses are thriving but despite this the benks are withdrawing their credit facilities. Sorry to be blunt - and I haven't read the posts above as I'm in a rush[/quote] We went through it all earlier. Those lucky folk who's bank love them are making a killing; if you're one of them then great. ~ I'm getting a bit sick of online shopping - if my favourite retailers haven't got an item then I've given up on searching the ten billion music retailers to find it. I'll buy something else. I've worked in web and eCommerce for a loooonnng time and the current situation and trends worry me. I'm almost at the point of saying Prosebass's prediction about everyone just buying from Thomann will come true. Maybe things will all collapse and we'll end up with three sites on the internet for making purchases - Thomann for musical instruments; and eBay & Amazon for *everything* else. But personally, I'm sick of the post office. Sick of failed deliveries and long delays before getting what I want - increasingly these days I'll look to a real shop instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='387386' date='Jan 21 2009, 12:21 PM']We went through it all earlier. Those lucky folk who's bank love them are making a killing; if you're one of them then great. ~ I'm getting a bit sick of online shopping - if my favourite retailers haven't got an item then I've given up on searching the ten billion music retailers to find it. I'll buy something else. I've worked in web and eCommerce for a loooonnng time and the current situation and trends worry me. I'm almost at the point of saying Prosebass's prediction about everyone just buying from Thomann will come true. Maybe things will all collapse and we'll end up with three sites on the internet for making purchases - Thomann for musical instruments; and eBay & Amazon for *everything* else. But personally, I'm sick of the post office. Sick of failed deliveries and long delays before getting what I want - increasingly these days I'll look to a real shop instead.[/quote] Good on yer.... It is a shame that a lot of people have been sucked into on-line trading for everything. Not only are we losing shops but also all the social interaction and spin offs from shopping ie coffee shops, taxi , bus, fuel, pub etc.... and the general good feeling you get when your main street is buzzin on a Saturday afternoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmer61 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 1) What do you look for in a music shop? Knowlegable staff who don't patronise un-informed punters A quiet place where you can try kit out without being embaressed in front of staff or other punters Good range of kit (new and s/h) to suit most pockets Repairs and set ups reasonably priced Competative pricing, I will pay more to have it now and in my hands than over the internet. Creative pricing (deposits down to reserve that must have piece of kit) Credit facilities ("I must have this bass now" syndrome) 2) What would you ideally like to see in a music shop? As above Perhaps a collection and delivery service. Loan service for amps etc in cases of emergencies - pehaps 24hr service Trace Elliot stock 3) How far would you travel? Depends if they have what I want. But have driven many miles to collect 2nd hand kit. 4) Am I mad to consider this? No. Cheap rents available Prob pick up reasonable 2nd hand stock Govt initiatives may enable loans to become more available Need USP that will draw people in. Main issue is cash, cash flow kills business esp in early stages make sure you can run for several (six) months without cash coming in, if you can't don't do it. I wish I had the guts to do it............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cooke Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='photographymatt' post='382673' date='Jan 16 2009, 05:31 PM']BIMM bands? I understand the transient part:-)[/quote] BIMM Brighton or Bristol (delete as appropriate) Institute of Modern Music It's part of the curriculum for certain courses that students must form a band and perform in public... thus the large number of transient bands which form for a few weeks and perform for free basically thus depressing the market for proper bands as they have trouble getting in to venues when the promoters can get bands for free or even get them to do pay-to-play... plus there are end of term/course showcase gigs for just "BIMM" bands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ah yes, meant to reply to that - Brighton Institute of Moronic Music. A few of them can play fairly well. Fewer still have any more than a basic grasp of songwriting and none appear to be able to write lyrics which wouldn't be torn to shreds by any self-respecting critic. Unfortunately because they're quite good at bringing along their fellow students they tend to be a popular booking but this lowering of quality means you kill off the real gigging scene and replace with with transient wannabes and hangers-on. And since when did you need to attend an academy to learn to play rock and roll? (Good business concept though if you're a failed rock star and fancy making a living out of the clueless youth). Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmaxblues Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Wow, some fantastic and very interesting responses there guys! thank you. I am doing a massive amout of research now and looking into the logistics of it. Basically I moarn the loss of decent back street shops, where they stock good second hand kit, well set-up kit, loads of spares and people on hand for repairs etc. Also, there is a room at the rear which would lend itself for teaching rooms or a small recording studio. Friendly is important too, people want to be sold to, to enjoy the whole experience, in my opinion Denmark Street deserves to fail after I visited it a few months ago. With people who plainly didnt want to help or thought they were rock stars. It would be pointless to compete on the cheap Stagg etc ranges, this market is saturated, I would rather find cheap interesting second hand instruments. I am thinking of aiming it at bands primarily, offering instrument hire too. Early days yet...... Will keep you posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='vmaxblues' post='387655' date='Jan 21 2009, 04:10 PM']Wow, some fantastic and very interesting responses there guys! thank you. I am doing a massive amout of research now and looking into the logistics of it. Basically I moarn the loss of decent back street shops, where they stock good second hand kit, well set-up kit, loads of spares and people on hand for repairs etc. Also, there is a room at the rear which would lend itself for teaching rooms or a small recording studio. Friendly is important too, people want to be sold to, to enjoy the whole experience, in my opinion Denmark Street deserves to fail after I visited it a few months ago. With people who plainly didnt want to help or thought they were rock stars. It would be pointless to compete on the cheap Stagg etc ranges, this market is saturated, I would rather find cheap interesting second hand instruments. I am thinking of aiming it at bands primarily, offering instrument hire too. Early days yet...... Will keep you posted[/quote] Good luck but I think those days are gone ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 [quote name='crez5150' post='387125' date='Jan 21 2009, 08:43 AM']Turnkey was part of Sound control....... Turnkey is now owned by PMT, along with some of the old Sound control branches.... this will become part of their on-line portfolio.[/quote] PMT? I don't like the sound of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='387764' date='Jan 21 2009, 05:22 PM']Good luck but I think those days are gone .....[/quote] Exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OldGit' post='387764' date='Jan 21 2009, 05:22 PM']Good luck but I think those days are gone .....[/quote] Whilst there is merit in good advice if everyone listened to the doubters with regard to any enterprise no one would be doing anything ! I personally wish vmaxblues every success in this venture and its our responsibility as a community to support him. We all bemoan the passing of family owned shops in our hometowns yet we all shop at Tesco. We watch our main streets decline yet we all shop on line ! Just to say "it won't work" or "those days are gone" isn't helpful and not constructive in anyway. With the correct attitude anything is possible it depends how hard you are prepared to work for it. A lot of people are happy in their "comfort zone" picking up a wage slip every month and would never risk anything to try a business venture which can be worrying , exhilarating and fun at the same time. I don't see how those people can advise someone else on running a company when they have never done it themselves. Its a bit like business advisers who have never run a company wtf !!!! Running your own business has a certain attractive edginess about it that is hard to explain. A friend of my was sacked as a director of a company last year when the other directors turned on him. He went straight out and started a new company. 12 months on he is opening his second shop in direct competition with the old company he worked for. And as for the company that sacked him , they are struggling and may go out of business. How did he do it ? bloody hard graft. Anytime is a good time to start a business you just gotta have a passion for it. And a last word of advice.....don't think everything in the bass / music world is reflected in basschat ! 80% of the basses I have sold have been sold elsewhere. (ducks and runs for cover.... ) Edited January 24, 2009 by Prosebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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