What the hell is a "pocket", more so a "deep pocket"?

[alexclaber]

It's more than just good timing. Still waiting for a better suggestion...

Alex

[KennysFord]

On a slightly different tack here but Funkymunky---just checked out your Myspace,Kudos man,in very large portions !!
Right then....where were we....

[OldGit]

[quote name='The Funk' post='322787' date='Nov 5 2008, 04:48 PM'] You sound like you're possessed by the ghost of Joseph McCarthy![/quote]


Waah! Tea > Screen
Excellent!

[Bilbo]

Its not about jazz, its about everything.

I used jazz examples because I know them best but other examples were used to illustrate my point.

John Bonham has nowhere near the technique of Simon Phillips but, in 'pocket' terms, Bonham was the greater player. Slash doesn't have anywhere near Malmsteen's technique but his 'groove' is much deeper. What I was referring to re: jazz was that the fact that a lot of jazz is cerebral means that it doesn't move most people. But, when a jazz performance finds the right 'pocket', it reaches more people because the 'pocket' is where its the most real. Try Lee Morgan's 'Sidewinder' or Blakey's 'Moanin''. They are great jazz but they are more than just great jazz.

If its in the pocket, people respond, heads start to nod, people make eye contact with each other, even musician's feet start tapping

If you don't know what 'in the pocket' means, keep playing. One day, you will find it and then you will know!

[The Funk]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='323207' date='Nov 6 2008, 08:46 AM']It's more than just good timing. Still waiting for a better suggestion...[/quote]

Keeping good time suggests playing in such a way that the tempo never shifts - it never slows down or speeds up.

Groove and being in the pocket are something more than just that. It's about phrasing, by which I mean accenting particular notes and drawing others out, and creating tension and release with the linearity of the beats in such a way as to create an extremely pleasing result, either by all playing ahead of the beat or behind the beat or on the beat, or by one or more of you playing behind while the others play on the beat, or the best combination of any of those. It is something you can do on your own but usually it's something you do as a band - drums, bass, rhythm guitar, keyboards, brass section etc.

You see why musicians talk about "groove", being "locked" or "in the pocket" now? Look how jumbled up my attempted explanation was!

My old bass mentor once described my role as a bassist as being similar to a flea bouncing up and down on the rump of a huge elephant as it walks through the jungle.

He also drew out a little picture with the beats of a bar of 4/4 to explain to me about playing ahead, onbeat or behind the beat. A good example of playing behind is [i]Cissy Strut[/i] by The Meters. I know a lot of people recommend listening to The Meters when you start dabbling in funk but I always recommend steering clear for a while because that playing behind the beat thing - which most of the New Orleans funk bands do - is really hard to do properly. In general, it's impossible to play ahead of the beat or behind the beat before you can keep good time. For a lot of musicians (myself included) playing ahead of the beat comes with the danger of everyone speeding up and playing behind the beat comes with the risk of everyone slowing down.

[Bilbo]

The Funk is right on the money - for you to actually play behind or ahead of the beat, you need to be sure that everyone around you knows where the beat is and manages their own contribution accordingly, not slowing down or speeding up because you are not playing metronomically!

S'hard!

[Steve A]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='323141' date='Nov 6 2008, 12:43 AM']Check out funkmunky's stuff on his myspace. Exquisite timing. So down, he's in the turn-up.[/quote]


Thanks for the kind words!

[Steve A]

[quote name='kennyrodg' post='323208' date='Nov 6 2008, 08:52 AM']On a slightly different tack here but Funkymunky---just checked out your Myspace,Kudos man,in very large portions !!
Right then....where were we....[/quote]


And again, thankyou!!! It means a lot

[bassace]

It's difficult (and a bit futile?) to try and analyse. I've been playing, mainly jazz, for 40plus years now and have never come across the expression. I'm more familiar with the expression 'swing', as in 'does it swing?'. And I'm not talking Glenn Miller here. If the music moves effortlessly along, with a momentum of its own, it's probably swinging. The pulse comes from the bass with the drums providing the ride and embellishment to the front instrument's phrasing. In jazz it helps if the pulse is slightly in front of the beat - after immersing myself in Paul Chambers and others I can't seem to play any other way. Sometimes you will get a drummer who is sympathetic, sometimes unfortunately not. There have been times when I have worked with a good drummer and I've felt a shiver up my spine.

There are lots of good examples in jazz (sorry i'm not so au fait with rock, and respect to you guys). Try to catch a recording of 'Dat 'Dere by the Adderly Brothers. Just listen to pianist Bobby Timmons's solo, 'specially the second chorus. That's really swinging!

PS it doesn't have to be played fast to be able to swing.

[The Funk]

[quote name='bassace' post='323295' date='Nov 6 2008, 11:23 AM']It's difficult (and a bit futile?) to try and analyse. I've been playing, mainly jazz, for 40plus years now and have never come across the expression. I'm more familiar with the expression 'swing', as in 'does it swing?'. And I'm not talking Glenn Miller here. If the music moves effortlessly along, with a momentum of its own, it's probably swinging.[/quote]

I see "groove" and "the pocket" as the same question as "does it swing?". I think "in the pocket" is more a rhythm n' blues expression but in my mind they mean the same thing.

[chris_b]

Swing, Groove, Loose, Tight, Pocket, they are all terms describing "in the zone". Is what you are playing or hearing [i]exactly[/i] right, goose-bump right, hair raising right?
Why bother to call these terms crap? When you're good enough to achieve "being in the pocket" you don't care what it's called.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='chris_b' post='323308' date='Nov 6 2008, 11:36 AM']When you're good enough to achieve "being in the pocket" you don't care what it's called.[/quote]

Yeah, yo haters wish y'all could find the pocket and get deep in it, fo' sure!

Alex

[The Funk]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='323371' date='Nov 6 2008, 01:02 PM']Yeah, yo haters wish y'all could find the pocket and get deep in it, fo' sure![/quote]

Word. Ain't nothin' but a thang.

[Soulfinger]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='322784' date='Nov 5 2008, 05:43 PM']Its soul. Its groove. Its the point where man and machine are operating in perfect harmony. Its why Michael Brecker and Bob Berg aren't Stan Getz and Paul Desmond.[/quote]
I tried hard, but I can´t let you get away with this one.

Michael Brecker had everything you mentioned - soul, groove and complete mastery of the instrument. To me. he was one of the most in-the-pocket players ever. Just because he was playing some really advanced stuff harmonically and technically doesn´t mean he was just a w***er. He alsways had something to say musically. I´ve seen him live a couple of times and have yet to hear someone who can build a solo better than he did...

Here endeth the rant.

[The Funk]

Michael Brecker's a groove monster - even on that plastic monstrosity.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Soulfinger' post='323483' date='Nov 6 2008, 02:57 PM']Michael Brecker had everything you mentioned - soul, groove and complete mastery of the instrument. To me. he was one of the most in-the-pocket players ever.[/quote]

John Coltrane was once said that evey sax player would sound like Stan Getz if they could.

Brecker was undoubtedly a great player and is already sorely missed but soul? Maybe a bit but not like the great, greats.

I once did a gig in Cardiff and the horn section from Lionel Hampton's big band dropped in! There were all these young guys playing theirs asses off and setting their horns on fire. Then this 60+ year old alto player got up and flattened them with one short solo that was DEEP. These young guys were SO enthralled by this older guy that they just sat there with grins on their faces. It was a real learning moment for me.

I just think that, whilst Brecker was a great player, there are many that can't play nearly as 'well' as he could but can communicate more.

PS - I have considerably more Brecker than Getz recordings!!

Edited November 6, 2008 by bilbo230763

[The Funk]

Ah, Bilbo. I think you got carried away in your description of what "in the pocket" means by including soulfulness. I don't think it does. Brecker was always in the pocket. Whether or not he played with any kind of soul or conveyed great emotion is not really the same question.

[alexclaber]

Yep, the pocket is about groove and I would rarely use it to describe non-rhythm section players.

Alex

[nobodysprefect]

[quote name='bassace' post='323295' date='Nov 6 2008, 01:23 PM']In jazz it helps if the pulse is slightly in front of the beat - after immersing myself in Paul Chambers and others I can't seem to play any other way. Sometimes you will get a drummer who is sympathetic, sometimes unfortunately not. There have been times when I have worked with a good drummer and I've felt a shiver up my spine.[/quote]

Pardon the terrible snipping, this was something that really resonated with my experiences. The US walking bass tradition has a lot of players playing in front of the beat all the time! Which drives the music ever so well. Doesn't work that well in some other styles, tho. Somebody already mentioned playing behind the beat in funk, which is the way I like to funk it but then again, other giant cats were right on the beat there....

So, if one is playing within the style, swing, bop, post-bop, one would play one's line ahead of the beat. How did this come about? No doubt the double bass is part of the answer, as playing on the beat with it's characteristic blossoming attack would drag instead of drive the beat, no? I also fully endorse the bit about getting to play with a good jazz drummer. (And there's a world of difference if they're a jazz drummer or a beat drummer playing jazz)

[Shaggy]

I thought this thread was going to be about neck pockets and extra-deep neck pockets! 4 pages later I’m none the wiser, but it did remind me of a joke so old Frank Carson probably used it;

A hippy ([i]read; bassist[/i]) was ambling along through the fields one day, probably looking for “mushrooms”, when he trips over a leprechaun
“Ah, yer great hippy eejit” curses the leprechaun, “an’ I suppose ye’ll be wanting yer three wishes now?”
“Three wishes?” muses the hippy “Like………crazy. OK man, I wanna be uptight, outta sight, and in the groove”
So………..















…the leprechaun turned him into a sanitary towel.


Coat. Mine. I'll get.

[Ajoten]

Sounds like another daft vacuous urban Americanism that relies on the triumph of hope over expectation to convey meaning. Presumably "in the pocket" just means "good", effectively, but that's just too uncool a way of saying it? Or is that my bad (bad [i]what [/i]exactly)? Sounds like pocket playing is only ever going to occur in music that goes on a bit without changing, perhaps music that sets out to be cool first and good later.

And Simon Philips isn't going to be Bonzo because er he's Simon Philips. And miraculously he's DEAD GOOD despite not being JB - having technique is not mutually exclusive to being able to groove (or having a foot like a flipper). Check his playing on the very uncool Mike Oldfield's Discovery. On the nose. On the money. On the button.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='The Funk' post='323520' date='Nov 6 2008, 04:06 PM']Ah, Bilbo. I think you got carried away in your description of what "in the pocket" means by including soulfulness. I don't think it does. Brecker was always in the pocket. Whether or not he played with any kind of soul or conveyed great emotion is not really the same question.[/quote]

Fair play, TF. (But I still think Breckers pockets are a bit too tidy!!!)

Simon Phillips is marvelous - does anyone remember Jon Anderson's 'Olympia' LP - some superb work from all players (inc Jack Bruce and John Giblin IIRC) but Phillips is a stand-out. Even his stuff on Michael Schenker's first LP is ground breaking rock drumming but, despite Phillips enormous skills, no-one but Bonham could have made 'Kashmir' sound like THAT! And that's what I understand as being 'in the pocket'.

[tauzero]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='323495' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:19 PM']I once did a gig in Cardiff and the horn section from Lionel Hampton's big band dropped in! There were all these young guys playing theirs asses off and setting their horns on fire.[/quote]
They nicked that idea off Jimi Hendrix.

And back to the OP, it's nice to know that there's such a clear unambiguous expression as "in the pocket" which describes playing exactly on the beat either just ahead of or behind it, locked in perfectly with the drummer so you don't play exactly together but the drummer leads the bass who is leading the drummer, and now apparently you also need to have your horn on fire.

What happens when there's a hole in the pocket?

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='tauzero' post='324159' date='Nov 7 2008, 01:05 PM']...and now apparently you also need to have your horn on fire.

What happens when there's a hole in the pocket?[/quote]

You can get creams for that now

[Bilbo]

[quote name='tauzero' post='324159' date='Nov 7 2008, 01:05 PM']They nicked that idea off Jimi Hendrix.

And back to the OP, it's nice to know that there's such a clear unambiguous expression as "in the pocket" which describes playing exactly on the beat either just ahead of or behind it, locked in perfectly with the drummer so you don't play exactly together but the drummer leads the bass who is leading the drummer, and now apparently you also need to have your horn on fire.[/quote]

Not everything in the world can be clarified using words:

Try and find a definitive explain of love? fear? elation? jazz? tomatos? that bit of skin under your nose?

The written word is even worse: this doesn't work unless you actually say it out loud with the appropriate inflection....

You say tomato, I say tomato
You say potato and I say potato
Tomato, tomato, potato, potato
Let's call the whole thing off.

'In the pocket' is just one of those things that defied clarity. But that's what makes it cool.

Cool... now there's another one....