Andyjr1515 Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I'm very excited about this project. The challenge is, can a wonderful-but-challenging custom-built semi be turned into / turned back into a fully playable and satisfying bass? It is a stunning bass commissioned a number of years ago by W1_Pro (Stuart) of basschat from what is clearly a master builder but which had some design challenges and has since developed some mechanical issues. Here it is: It has some notable features:[list] [*]The body is fully carved walnut - top and bottom [*]The neck (34") and centre block are one continuous piece of timber, tip to toe [*]It has a double battery compartment in the back although is wired for standard passive at the moment [*]It's quite weighty - 10lbs + [/list] However, there are some real challenges that make it presently pretty unplayable:[list] [*]The bridge, when the strings are fitted, sits high and at a steep angle [*]The sit on the strap is very uncomfortable, neck heavy and makes it extremely difficult to reach the first couple of frets [*]The tonal palette is limited [/list] I have agreed with Stuart that we will tackle the issues in a logical sequence, tackling basic playability and functionality first and then, as we deem each stage successful and worth the cost / risk, move further up the wish list. So, first thing to tackle is that positioning on the strap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 The first job has been to fully understand how the bass has been constructed and take copious measurements. There are some really skillful features in the construction - the carve of the top and bottom solid walnut body panels is stunning, inside and out. However, the long-scale and forward positioning of the bridge is problematic, putting the farthest end of the fretboard literally out of reach for shorta***s like me Mrs Andyjr1515 wasn't in this morning so you'll have to use your imagination with some bad small mirror shots Here it is hanging on the strap on its present strap pins. ...and here's where my fully outstretched arm gets me (I'm 5'7" so not crazily off the median scale): Clearly, moving the bridge back is impossible because then the neck would need to be shortened. Actually, not impossible but highly, highly risky (removal of fretboard; cut, shorten and scarf neck; rejoin; replace truss rod; reglue fretboard). But what about strap pin positions? Here's where the pin is at the moment: Strap pins in this position can be problematic and this one certainly is. I un-hitched the front strap lock and tried a number of positions - practical and impractical - to feel what happened to the CofG, the pull and the settling position of the body. I concluded that a position that [i]might [/i]work was like where a number of acoustics have theirs - at the bottom side of the neck heel: But before I drill a hole in this beautiful piece of wood, could I be a bit more sure? Enter a heavily modified high-tech strap simulation rig (otherwise known as a piece of string): ...and now where do my short arms reach?: Massive difference. Certainly worth a small drill-hole to try it out for real. I'll let you know how it goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allighatt0r Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1_Pro Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) The bass has always had issues, due in no small part to my slightly tw*ty design brief to the builder, which involved a lot of having cake and eating it type stuff. In my defence, I was only 21 at the time, so the recklessness of youth etc etc. It's a maple through neck- The body is indeed imbuya, which is called walnut even though it's not walnut, according to wikipedia (who knew??). Ebony board with rather nice abalone block inlays. There was originally an active circuit on it, but that made terrible hissing noises- the original builders strong point was not wiring- so I had it removed, and now it sounds dead. I always thought it was extra long scale- mainly because I couldn't reach the first fret- obviously I never actually measured it or anything like that! In short, this bass has been largely unplayable for more than a quarter of a century, which frustrates me enormously. So I'm very happy that Andy has agreed to take this on. He seems to specialise in turning very fiddly no hopers into cracking instruments, so I have high hopes. Sincere thanks for doing this Andy. I look forward to developments. Edited July 26, 2016 by W1_Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 OK - what I should portray is, "Of course, I was always pretty sure this was the right solution..." The actual sentiment was, "IT WORKED! IT WORKED!! GOOD HEAVENS - IT ACTUALLY B****Y WORKED!!!!!!" Mrs Andyjr1515 was back so here it is hands-free: Here it is being played with my ridiculously short arms: And does it interfere in the dusty end? No. Here's where the strap sits: ...and here it is in playing position up at the dusty end - there is no interference from the strap whatsoever: Good start, although I'm sure things won't be as smooth as that from now on. Next is sorting the bridge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 [quote name='W1_Pro' timestamp='1468846814' post='3093714'] The body is indeed imbuya, which is called walnut event though it's not walnut, according to wikipedia (who knew??). [/quote] I stand corrected! It looked like some highly figured NA Black Walnut but it is much browner than walnut when I think about it. It's lovely stuff whatever.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1_Pro Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Excellent work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) Onto the bridge. I don't have the specific solution yet, but I can see what the problem and root cause has been. What Stuart reported was that the bridge sat very high and at an angle. It's a slightly unusual stop-tail bridge (German made - not quite sure whose) and you can see here that it's been digging into the body: The cause of that - but not the root cause of the issue - was quite easy to work out - the bushes were very loose in deformed holes. Both bushes just lifted out. You can see the gap between the hole and the bush here: The root cause, I believe, is two-fold. Firstly a design/installation flaw in the bridge itself. The stop tail slots into the bridge: But there is much more distance between the ball end and the bushes than a normal stop tail. With the strings here being angled, there is a significant twisting force on both the bridge and the bushes. Now - although I can't work out how you could install such an arrangement - it is notable that there are a couple of threaded holes at the back of the stop tail that presumably are intended for it to be screwed somehow to the body (as I say, can't imagine how that could ever be done, particularly as the bridge itself has lateral adjustment screws - certainly not possible on this type of bass): The additional root cause can only be seen properly with a dentist's mirror. The stop tail bushes are wider than the central maple block. You can just about see here where the drill used for the bushes holes has caught the side of the block: To ensure the bushes have got something to drill into, there are small maple blocks glued either side. However, with the best will in the world - and that enormous twisting load on the bushes - the holes are likely to distort. You can see gaps in the bush hole sides here: I have yet to find the right hardware, but the solution in theory is:[list] [*]Have the bridge as just that - so that the only force on it is downwards. [*]Install a separate stoptail. However, this can't be a Tune-o-matic or similar, because of the same problem - the bush centres would be wider than the central block [/list] My first thought is to find and install a suitable jazz-type trapeze stop-tail and separate bridge. I'll be doing some internet searching tomorrow Edited July 18, 2016 by Andyjr1515 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Looking forward to following this thread - love Andy's work so I'm confident that Stuart's going to be happy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 [quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1468862075' post='3093875'] Looking forward to following this thread - love Andy's work so I'm confident that Stuart's going to be happy... [/quote] Thanks, Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 An ebony tailpiece like on a Benedetto archtop guitar would look very classy. Lots of work though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 18, 2016 Author Share Posted July 18, 2016 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1468877246' post='3094042'] An ebony tailpiece like on a Benedetto archtop guitar would look very classy. Lots of work though! [/quote] They are lovely, but Stuart is keen to retain the gold hardware look. I've tracked down just the thing, I think.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 I'll post some pics when the bits arrive, but I've got a gold trapeze tailpiece and gold Tune-o-matic style bridge on the way. Not expensive so they will just go in my 'parts' box for another day if no good but I think they are going to do the job very competently and look right on the instrument. The other advantage is that the bushes - although smaller - should fit within the circumference of the existing bush holes. If that all pans out (you never really know until you've got the bits in your hand and try it for real) then it will mean that I can plug the existing bush holes, redrill for the new smaller bushes and fit the bridge without having to have to find new secure places for the new bushes and also have to hide two big holes! There will not be the same problem of the holes distorting as on the original because the only force on the bridge now will be downwards, where the top and bush supports are perfectly strong enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Wow, what an interesting thread! Super nice bass too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) With the bridge and tailpiece on order, Stuart and I have been discussing the next stages. As we almost certainly now have a fully playable bass in sight, the tasks start moving towards how the bass sounds, now and in the future. The first change is to put in a powered EQ, driving the existing passive pickups. We've decided on the 3-band version of the Seymour Duncan EQ I fitted to my own fretless and Kert's Camphor singlecut. The 3 band has more knobs than ours so is maybe a little less intuitive (or in my terminology, one where an old git like me gets completely lost which knob he's set where ) but Stuart is OK with that and likes the potential extra control over the mids. Also, it means that we have 4 new knobs to simply replace the 4 old ones Assuming the bridge humbucker is splittable, I will route the split via the existing unconnected toggle switch and then feed the output to the EQ. But it is also possible that Stuart in the future may want to upgrade the pickups too. To make all of this reasonably straightforward I'm going to...wait for it.... ...cut a control panel at the back Now, before you all scream "On a semi?????" and "Sacrilege!" and "Put a nasty plastic cover on that beautifully carved back??", I'd better explain that what I am going to attempt is what I did last year on the shaped back of a ES339 6 string: Basically, with a very fine bit, I routed out a complete panel using a template and a guide ring on the router base, then added some strip to act as the rebate: A bit scary, but with enough care and planning, no reason why it shouldn't work fine Edited July 19, 2016 by Andyjr1515 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBus Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 It's always interesting watching people's builds but for some reason I'm finding this really exciting. Maybe because it is something completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 [quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1468956185' post='3094689'] It's always interesting watching people's builds but for some reason I'm finding this really exciting. Maybe because it is something completely different. [/quote] A pal of mine often says he likes watching the stuff I do (including playing) because I'm always on the very edge of disaster... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Super skill with the control plate and a nice touch using purfling / strip to take the saw kerf up. I feel the need to bring my 335 type bass to you for some cosmetic fettling in the bridge area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 [quote name='3below' timestamp='1468959999' post='3094749'] Super skill with the control plate and a nice touch using purfling / strip to take the saw kerf up. I feel the need to bring my 335 type bass to you for some cosmetic fettling in the bridge area. [/quote] Actually, while that is a great tip for the next one (maybe even this one!) it's a bit of an illusion. It is quite a small gap (1.5mm) all round so I painted the edges of the cover and the faces of the rebate strips matt black, then added a couple of locating pins to ensure that the cover was exactly in position with an even gap all round. I did actually think of doing something like you said when I thought I might need to use a thicker router bit for the cut but it cut fine with a thin bit on that particular wood. Not sure I will be able to cut the imbuya with such a small bit so I might ending up using your idea on this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 The deception of pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 [quote name='3below' timestamp='1468964232' post='3094809'] The deception of pictures [/quote] Seriously, though it's a great idea and certainly possible to do. I'll post you a picture if I'm able to incorporate it in a future build! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 The trapeze and t-o-m arrived this morning. I think this will work and look just fine : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allighatt0r Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Sweeeeeet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1_Pro Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 That is handsome Andy. Good call! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 [quote name='allighatt0r' timestamp='1469106561' post='3095803'] Sweeeeeet... [/quote]Thanks [quote name='W1_Pro' timestamp='1469107143' post='3095812'] That is handsome Andy. Good call! [/quote] Phew! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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