IS IT IMPORTANT

[Doddy]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='276434' date='Sep 3 2008, 05:57 PM']also remember that some of the greatest musicains in the world couldn't/cant read or write a note of music!!


[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. The greatest musicians(with few exceptions) can/could read music.

[jay249]

It's fine until you realise you want to play with other human beings, or read music and need a language between you to explain what the hell's going on...

Theres only 4 strings with 12 notes on...you get up to the 12th fret and it happens all over again, and if you tune in 4ths like most of us, you can learn all the notes on E and A, and blag the rest with the two ''octave'' shapes, which means you only actually have to learn the notes on E and A.

Edited September 3, 2008 by jay249

[Toasted]

I think it's more important (and more musically rewarding) to learn the musical relationships between the notes than learning where every Bb is by rote.

[slaphappygarry]

Scales are like roadmaps.

Its fun blasting about aimlessly for a while but eventually you will want to get where you need to go quickly and by the best route.

Get them learned. Start Maj and Minor plus a Dom 7. It will open your eyes.

G

[jay249]

Yeah I agree but this guy blatantly doesn't care about that so why not cheat?

[ironside1966]

What to learn depends on what you want to get out of playing bass , if you only want jam along to CDs, with mates or just play in the bedroom for fun there is no need to learn anything you dont want to, nothing wrong with playing for your own pleasure.
If you want more out of music then it takes some hard boring work.
Developing good timing and feel takes a lot of practice, which is often boring, we all know players who go to music shops showing off with their fast triplet licks, but in reality they are no good to a band because they cannot play in time. this is what happen when you miss out on developing the basic skills

The basic understanding of music allows you to communicate with others musically as well helping become a better player yourself. Also if you join a band, for the band to get good it takes a lot of practice and repartition wich can get boring.
In short, you only get out what you put in. if you want the glory without the hard work there is always X factor

[thepurpleblob]

Learning where the notes are isn't theory, it's knowing which note is which. You can more or less get away with knowing the first seven frets on the E and A strings (I've been playing for years and I still need to think about the G string). How much more stuff about harmony and scales and all that stuff is up to you. However, a lot of it is actually quite interesting and it all helps - really :-)

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='slaphappygarry' post='276551' date='Sep 3 2008, 09:14 PM']Scales are like roadmaps.

Its fun blasting about aimlessly for a while but eventually you will want to get where you need to go quickly and by the best route.

Get them learned. Start Maj and Minor plus a Dom 7. It will open your eyes.

G[/quote]

Dom7 isn't a scale..... unless you mean the mixolydian mode. There, that's scared him away

[wateroftyne]

I'm wallowing in relative ignorance and doing OK.

I'm not advocating it though. M'kay, kids?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='276434' date='Sep 3 2008, 05:57 PM']i learned to play bass just by listening to the bands i liked and figuring the parts out! this has given me a pretty dam good ear and i can now pick stuff up really quickly! it also has led to me being a very free and natural player. i dont have to think about what im doing in a mathmatical way i just do it by feel. this really works for me in a band situation where you improvise and jam a lot!

a lot of the musicians that i was around when i first started out really didnt understand how i could play with out lessons or theory (ive never had a lesson in my life) they had so many lessons and its all they talked about but in a band situation they sounded so wooden like they were being restricted by what they were being taught! like they were only aloud to play what was "correct" and "proper" but to me music is about expression and feel. i think you should start by playing how you want to play and develop your own style! then later on if you feel like you hit a brick wall or want to take it to another level consider lessons etc

if your happy and confident with your playing then its obviously working for you! dont worry about theory too much or what other people say/think! just keep up to date with the basics and just get on with playing and enjoying it! after all thats what its all about!

also remember that some of the greatest musicains in the world couldn't/cant read or write a note of music!!


[/quote]

This is what is called a series of justifications. It all sounds perfectly plausible but what Chrisdabass is actually saying is that you can become a 'free and natural' player' without doing any work and, and this is the one that REALLY gets on my thruppnies, that people who have studied sound wooden [i]because [/i] they have studied and had lessons. This is a fantastic way of justifying a lack of investment in your playing. Music is about 'expression and feel'? Of course it is. But its not about magic and the magic bass pixie coming along and sprinkling pixie dust on the chosen few. It is about gathering as much information as you need to make defensible decisions about note choices, groove playing, musica textures etc

The trouble with 'natural' and 'untrained' players is that they are invariably one trick ponies who have a limited potential to find work. They are generally less informed about the wider musical world and fairly entrenched in a small generic silo. Outside of their comfort zone they struggle.

The fact that some of the greatest musicians in the world can't read a note of music is neither here nor there. The question is what route is going to get you the most long term benefits as a player. I would advocate for systematic study over pixie dust everytime!

If you want my opinion, if anyone ever tells you there is an easy way to learn the bass that doesn't require concerted study, give them a wide berth.

[artisan]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='276755' date='Sep 4 2008, 10:53 AM']This is what is called a series of justifications. It all sounds perfectly plausible but what Chrisdabass is actually saying is that you can become a 'free and natural' player' without doing any work and, and this is the one that REALLY gets on my thruppnies, that people who have studied sound wooden [i]because [/i] they have studied and had lessons. This is a fantastic way of justifying a lack of investment in your playing. Music is about 'expression and feel'? Of course it is. But its not about magic and the magic bass pixie coming along and sprinkling pixie dust on the chosen few. It is about gathering as much information as you need to make defensible decisions about note choices, groove playing, musica textures etc

The trouble with 'natural' and 'untrained' players is that they are invariably one trick ponies who have a limited potential to find work. They are generally less informed about the wider musical world and fairly entrenched in a small generic silo. Outside of their comfort zone they struggle.

The fact that some of the greatest musicians in the world can't read a note of music is neither here nor there. The question is what route is going to get you the most long term benefits as a player. I would advocate for systematic study over pixie dust everytime!

If you want my opinion, if anyone ever tells you there is an easy way to learn the bass that doesn't require concerted study, give them a wide berth.[/quote]

absolute load of bollocks-i've never had a lesson in my life yet i can happily play any style of music-blues-funk-regge-jazz-rock-etc. to me its more about your "feel" for the music rather than how much you spend on lessons or even how much time you spend studying.
now if you want to take lessons & spend hours studying theory & the like absolutley fine, no problem with that at all.but to put somebody else down or suggest they are a "one trick pony" just because they have not had any formal training is totally out of order.
as for this "They are generally less informed about the wider musical world and fairly entrenched in a small generic silo. Outside of their comfort zone they struggle" i think you should keep your arrogant,self important comments to yourself.

[artisan]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='276434' date='Sep 3 2008, 06:57 PM']ive been playin for nearly 14 years now and its only recently i feel like i need to start with some theory! (apart from the basics that i already know lol)

i learned to play bass just by listening to the bands i liked and figuring the parts out! this has given me a pretty dam good ear and i can now pick stuff up really quickly! it also has led to me being a very free and natural player. i dont have to think about what im doing in a mathmatical way i just do it by feel. this really works for me in a band situation where you improvise and jam a lot!

a lot of the musicians that i was around when i first started out really didnt understand how i could play with out lessons or theory (ive never had a lesson in my life) they had so many lessons and its all they talked about but in a band situation they sounded so wooden like they were being restricted by what they were being taught! like they were only aloud to play what was "correct" and "proper" but to me music is about expression and feel. i think you should start by playing how you want to play and develop your own style! then later on if you feel like you hit a brick wall or want to take it to another level consider lessons etc

if your happy and confident with your playing then its obviously working for you! dont worry about theory too much or what other people say/think! just keep up to date with the basics and just get on with playing and enjoying it! after all thats what its all about!

also remember that some of the greatest musicains in the world couldn't/cant read or write a note of music!!


[/quote]

+1 totally agree

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='276755' date='Sep 4 2008, 09:53 AM']The trouble with 'natural' and 'untrained' players is that they are invariably one trick ponies who have a limited potential to find work. They are generally less informed about the wider musical world and fairly entrenched in a small generic silo. Outside of their comfort zone they struggle.[/quote]

Utter, utter, utter, utter cobblers.

Just sayin'.

[Toasted]

Well, we can tell the dudes who don't know any theory.

(I kid, I kid )

[Dubs]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='276755' date='Sep 4 2008, 09:53 AM']This is what is called a series of justifications. It all sounds perfectly plausible but what Chrisdabass is actually saying is that you can become a 'free and natural' player' without doing any work and, and this is the one that REALLY gets on my thruppnies, that people who have studied sound wooden [i]because [/i] they have studied and had lessons. This is a fantastic way of justifying a lack of investment in your playing. Music is about 'expression and feel'? Of course it is. But its not about magic and the magic bass pixie coming along and sprinkling pixie dust on the chosen few. It is about gathering as much information as you need to make defensible decisions about note choices, groove playing, musica textures etc

The trouble with 'natural' and 'untrained' players is that they are invariably one trick ponies who have a limited potential to find work. They are generally less informed about the wider musical world and fairly entrenched in a small generic silo. Outside of their comfort zone they struggle.

The fact that some of the greatest musicians in the world can't read a note of music is neither here nor there. The question is what route is going to get you the most long term benefits as a player. I would advocate for systematic study over pixie dust everytime!

If you want my opinion, if anyone ever tells you there is an easy way to learn the bass that doesn't require concerted study, give them a wide berth.[/quote]

Totally agree.

Aritsan – It’s not about having professional lessons, that has sh*t all to do with learning the theory behind what you’re playing. You don’t have to have lessons to read a book…

It’s like learning a profession or trade; you don’t just get stuck in when it comes to fitting a gas boiler, you spend a couple of years training and you RTFM!! People in web design or IT can learn their trade ‘as they go’ or ‘learning on the job’ kind of thing, but if you study it and spend a bit of time learning about what you’re actually doing then you’re going to become a lot more efficient and capable of doing a whole lot more.

Yes, you can learn bass without learning music theory, but you’re gonna be a much better player if you do learn it – that is undeniable.

[Soliloquy]

I'm new to this forum, though I've been a regular browser.

I only actually joined because there's a bass for sale that I'd like to buy.

I studied at music college for a couple of years, I have had loads of hours of private tuition from various players, Steve Lawson and Todd Johnson to name but two of them. I alos put in countless hours of personal study from books (I have dozens), and the internet, I love music, and love learning about it.

I play funk and jazz mostly, and can play pretty much any style of music if needed.....and I mean play, not just plod along playing the correct root notes (or what I hope are the correct root notes!).

I can't work out how you can play with other musicians if you don't know what notes you're playing, it to me sounds like buying a Swedish phrase book, tearing off the side of the page with the English words on, and then going to Sweden for a holiday, sure you're coming out with Swedish words, but are they the right ones lol!.

You go to a jam or audition, someone gives you a chart with a few chord symbols on it, say Eb maj, Bb min, F7, how do you get on if you don't know where those notes are, and what notes you can play over those chords.
What will the other musicians think if you're stood there plonking away trying to hit a right note, or do you only ever play in one key ?.

And as for people telling Bilbo that he's talking b****cks, sorry but he's not, you are.

He's giving someone advice about learning some basic theory, basic theory can be learned in a few weeks, with the minimum of effort, and will give a lifetime of rewards.

Staying ignorant and only playing in a limited comfort zone is fine, but believe me, having a bit of knowledge and being able to step out of that zone is a magical thing, don't knock until you've tried it.

Some of the worlds greatest players couldn't read music, but that doesn't mean that they didn't know any theory, they're two different things.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Soliloquy

[wateroftyne]

Wow... strong opinions here. Some of them are just plain insulting.

Here's summat to ponder. You don't have to go to school to learn how to talk.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='277784' date='Sep 5 2008, 01:21 PM']Wow... strong opinions here. Some of them are just plain insulting.

Here's summat to ponder. You don't have to go to school to learn how to talk.[/quote]

but you [b]do[/b] need to get experience in conversing with people...you can't just sit at home and make noises at yourself and hope you can then walk into the outside world and debate politics

Lessons, IMHO, have helped [i]me[/i] greatly improve my musicality (hittin the right notes at the right time etc) and sped up the process of gettin me to where I want to be as a bassist.

If I took the route of sitting at home playing along to albums, I'd be able to (in time) get every note right, but possibly not know WHY those notes were chosen by the recording artist...this is where, I think, some theory [i]could[/i] prove helpful to then allow you to create your own lines [i]easier[/i] than without.

I know some great players without any music theory under their belt, and have not had a lesson in their life. I'm not one of those lucky few, as I've had to graft to get every shread of musicality I've now got...and as such, learning to read chord charts/sheet music, learning scales, modes etc have all been beneficial to [b][i]ME[/i][/b].

Bilbo may have phrased his post in a way that rubbed some up the wrong way, but he's speaking from HIS experience, and every poster here's got a different experience of music/theory/practicing etc. so I think it's up to Valentine to do as he sees fit.

Mate, if you're happy with how you're playing then crack on and go with the flow. If you feel like you want to know some theory, then there's plenty of guys here that can give you pointers! It's a hobby, not a chore...so whatever you do, just f***ing enjoy it!

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='277784' date='Sep 5 2008, 01:21 PM']Wow... strong opinions here. Some of them are just plain insulting.

Here's summat to ponder. You don't have to go to school to learn how to talk.[/quote]

True, your parents teach you...........otherwise you'd perhaps go through life saying goo goo ga ga, which might not get you very far.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Soliloquy' post='277800' date='Sep 5 2008, 01:37 PM']True, your parents teach you...........otherwise you'd perhaps go through life saying goo goo ga ga, which might not get you very far.[/quote]

Yep... similarly, since I was 14 I've been out playing with different people week in, week out.

Sweeping comments like...

[quote]The trouble with 'natural' and 'untrained' players is that they are invariably one trick ponies who have a limited potential to find work.[/quote]

...just boil my pi55, frankly.

[Shaun]

I've never had a music lesson in my life and have been playing for over 13 years.
I’m going to Study at The Institute of Contemporary Music in London this October.
I am really keen. I think it will be really beneficial.
I’ve learnt to play by myself, but learning music on an academic level will definitely benefit my playing.

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='Shaun' post='277807' date='Sep 5 2008, 01:44 PM']I've never had a music lesson in my life and have been playing for over 13 years.
I’m going to Study at The Institute of Contemporary Music in London this October.
I am really keen. I think it will be really beneficial.
I’ve learnt to play by myself, but learning music on an academic level will definitely benefit my playing.[/quote]

That's a fantastic place, the head of bass studies there is a guy called Terry Gregory, he's a friend of mine, and an excellent player and teacher...........he does play upside down and back to front though, like Jimmy Haslip.

[Shaun]

[quote name='Soliloquy' post='277815' date='Sep 5 2008, 01:54 PM']That's a fantastic place, the head of bass studies there is a guy called Terry Gregory, he's a friend of mine, and an excellent player and teacher...........he does play upside down and back to front though, like Jimmy Haslip.[/quote]

Awsome
I'm really keen to start

[artisan]

hey i'd never knock anyone for studying their instrument (the musical one not the pink one ) but as WOT said such comments as Bilbo made rub people up the wrong way & are totally uncalled for.

+ just because someone is self taught does not mean they don't know any theory.i started playing when i was 12 years old, i'm 41 years old now & reckon i know my way around the fretboard as well as any player here.
infact a very good freind of mine,who happens to be a very good jazz bass player (mind he's in his 60's & has been playing since he was a kid) told me he thought i was a very good technician & one of the best bass players he knows-'nough said.
now i'm not being big headed, as i'm a very modest person,those were his exact words-praise indeed from such a bass & jazz master.
so to sum up my inane rambling (sorry i'm bored shi7less at work) just because a player has never had any formal tuition does not make him a crap player or in fact a "one trick pony"
i thank you.
art'

Edited September 5, 2008 by artisan

[Soliloquy]

[quote name='artisan' post='277840' date='Sep 5 2008, 02:13 PM']hey i'd never knock anyone for studying their instrument (the musical one not the pink one ) but as WOT said such comments as Bilbo made rub people up the wrong way & are totally uncalled for.

+ just because someone is self taught does not mean they don't know any theory.i started playing when i was 12 years old, i'm 41 years old now & reckon i know my way around the fretboard as well as any player here.
infact a very good freind of mine,who happens to be a very good jazz bass player (mind he's in his 60's & has been playing since he was a kid) told me he thought i was a very good technician & one of the best bass players he knows-'nough said.
now i'm not being big headed, as i'm a very modest person,those were his exact words-praise indeed from such a bass & jazz master.
so to sum up my inane rambling (sorry i'm bored shi7less at work) just because a player has never had any formal tuition does not make him a crap player or in fact a "one trick pony"
i thank you.
art'[/quote]

I think the point is that people were saying that you don't need to know any theory, I totally agree with you about the formal teaching, it isn't necessarily important where the study comes from.