Bad lesson/teacher experiences

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1426847724' post='2722573']
Do qualifications make a lot of difference?
[/quote]

To a student or a tutor?

Students take lessons for any of a whole bunch of reasons, and although grade study is open for anybody who wants to do it, the consesus as I understand it is that they are of most use to youngsters who may be looking at a career in the business - higher grades count towards 'A' level point scores.

Tutors don't actually need to be qualified or accredited in any way, and it's quite possible to find a very good one with no letters after his/her name whatsoever (and a bad one with a whole string of 'em ). At heart, effective teaching is as much a mindset as anything else.

In general, a qualified and/or accredited tutor will have had training that covers issues such as identifying student needs, organising study sequences, and so on. Although it's not a given, a qualified tutor has a better chance of being good at the job than an unqualified one. Sadly, it's a profession still populated by rather too many cowboys, charlatans and well-meaning but incompetent teachers for my personal taste. Better qualified personnel can only serve to drive up standards. £30 an hour is pretty standard these days in many parts of the country, meaning that an hour a week for a year or so is going to be costing around £1500 (the price of a very good instrument). I believe it's not too much to ask for a tutor to be able to properly justify that kind of fee from his customers.

[timmo]

I understand the point of qualifications. They are good for youngsters, plus it is can be good for older people who like to test themselves. My point really, is that it seems a easy way too teach people, without being able to teach. If student says that they are not interested in grading, and ask what you want out of it, then tailor the lesson to suit, then they are not good in my opinion. I am not interested in playing the bass without understanding how or why I just played something. A bit like taking up a language, being able to talk it, but not understanding what it means sort of thing. £30 is a good price if you come away learning something valuable every lesson

[Bobthedog]

I have had three tutors todate. The first was a good professional player (£20 per hour) but [u]neither[/u] of us could communicate with each other to make it work other than at a perfunctory level. I moved away and so that finished that off. The second tutor (£ 40 per hour) I had was superb, not only did we get on but he was truly inspirational, helping me believe I could do something / coming up with ways to keep me wanting more; sadly costs and timings put paid to that continuing. My current tutor (£ 18 per 45 minutes), fully qualified and a former semi pro has helped me through three grading exams with distinctions each time but he not so inspirational.

The one common factor is me. The ability to get on / communicate depends so much on the personality of each teacher / pupil. Irrespective of qualifications, and assuming all teachers know their stuff (a massive assumption perhaps!), mutual understanding of expectations and how to get there with that pupil is the most important aspect of a tutor for me.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Bobthedog

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1426856917' post='2722770']
I understand the point of qualifications. They are good for youngsters, plus it is can be good for older people who like to test themselves. My point really, is that it seems a easy way too teach people, without being able to teach. If student says that they are not interested in grading, and ask what you want out of it, then tailor the lesson to suit, then they are not good in my opinion. I am not interested in playing the bass without understanding how or why I just played something. A bit like taking up a language, being able to talk it, but not understanding what it means sort of thing. £30 is a good price if you come away learning something valuable every lesson
[/quote]

As I said, people want lessons for a variety of reasons. Most tutors will guide younger students towards grades more or less automatically for a whole bunch of very good reasons. With adults the situation tends to be a lot more fluid (for example it could turn out that the student doesn't really know what to do for the best, or worse still want something that is not really going to help them progress). One of the hallmarks of a skillful tutor is adaptability; another is the ability to give students sound, clear advice (even if that advice is not to give up the day job - which I've had to do once or twice) rather than imposing the tutor's preferred way of doing things on them. 'My way or the Highway' is a sure sign of an inflexible tutor, and in the absence of a compelling reason not to, my advice would be to walk away. The OP's situation is a very good case in point.

[ambient]

The one thing I make a point of asking every student, at the end of every lesson, is "have you learned something ?".

I plan my lessons in advance, they're not just made up on the spot. I also tailor them to suit a students wants. However I think a tutor also needs to say to a student what they think the student needs to learn, even if it's different to what the student wants.

A recent new student of mine is a fairly old guy, who's owned a bass for almost as long as I've been alive, but has never really played it, other than to work out a couple of bass lines.

When he first phoned me, we chatted and he said that he'd set himself a target, that by the end of the year, he wanted to be able to say that he was a bass player.

On his first lesson I got him to play something, we then tackled the basics of holding the bass, and left hand technique etc, I gave him exercises at home to work on.

I then gave him a diagram that I'd done showing the notes on the first 5 frets. He asked why he needed that, he wasn't interested in learning to read music, he just wanted to use TAB. So I explained I wasn't going to teach him to read music, but that in my opinion knowing what the notes were that he was playing would make a huge, huge difference, and it wasn't a difficult thing to do.

He reluctantly agreed, went away, and to be honest I wasn't expecting him to come back the next time. He did though, and he'd made huge progress with his technique, and had learned most of the notes, and had identified how they repeat around the fretboard

With regard to qualifications, I think it depends on the qualification, I think going to someone with an actual teaching qualification would be a great idea, rather than just someone with a music degree.

[KevB]

Agree with most of what's already been said. You shouldn't be paying £30 of your hard earned to suck up to someone and stroke their ego while they show off their chops, you are there for a lesson not an audience. In many walks of life people who are good at stuff don't necessarily make good teachers. You only have to watch a few youtube interviews where some clearly gifted players sometimes seem to have a job articulating what they are doing themselves never mind teaching someone else. You might give the guy a second go if you think you could afford another potential £30 loss just in case you got him on an off day but if you were prepared to give a rough region where you are without someone trying to 'out' you I imagine there are folks on here who could give you names of teachers in your area that they are having worthwhile lessons with.

[timmo]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1426870117' post='2722982']
I imagine there are folks on here who could give you names of teachers in your area that they are having worthwhile lessons with.
[/quote] What if you recommended the person who the article is about?

[White Cloud]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1426802315' post='2722245']
Thanks for that. In inspection speak / reporting most means 90%. On that basis I guess it is time I left Basschat.
[/quote]
Sincere apologies if you have taken offence. It was absolutely not my intention for you to take my words to heart on a personal level. I was merely offering an opinion based upon my own life experiences of bass "teachers" and various others that I have interacted with.....

I don't speak inspection speak I speak in real terms. I would however rather you did not consider leaving basschat because of my post!

Btw I also hold formal teaching qualifications and teach both in the UK and abroad.

[3below]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1426871619' post='2723005']
Sincere apologies if you have taken offence. It was absolutely not my intention for you to take my words to heart on a personal level. I was merely offering an opinion based upon my own life experiences of bass "teachers" and various others that I have interacted with.....

I don't speak inspection speak I speak in real terms. I would however rather you did not consider leaving basschat because of my post!

Btw I also hold formal teaching qualifications and teach both in the UK and abroad.
[/quote]

My apologies back - I was a touch sensitive - probably the result of prolonged 'teacher bashing' over many years. like you I hold formal teaching qualifications, it used to be the day job. I totally agree with you that good teachers adapt and inspire. I also agree that there are poor teachers out there as well.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1426875770' post='2723054']
My apologies back - I was a touch sensitive - probably the result of prolonged 'teacher bashing' over many years. like you I hold formal teaching qualifications, it used to be the day job. I totally agree with you that good teachers adapt and inspire. I also agree that there are poor teachers out there as well.
[/quote]
No apology needed - my post was a bit blunt, not my usual style.

The fact that you obviously care tells me a lot about the type of teacher that you were. All the very best.

[KevB]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1426870559' post='2722993']
What if you recommended the person who the article is about?
[/quote]
If the OP got recommendations from others for the same guy then he would at least know that [i]some[/i] people were finding him useful so it would be more data for him to make a valued judgement on.

[oldslapper]

A couple of thoughts.

Ask a potential teacher if they have lessons. I like tutors that are prepared to undergo personal/professional development, it shows a level of humility, accountability, a willingness to be a student themselves and are open to learning new approaches to teaching.

In response to a previous post:- If an RGT tutor who advertises Grade 8 lessons, openly admits that they can't prepare a student to grade 2 then they should be reported to RGT, it is a breach of membership.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1426932439' post='2723535']If an RGT tutor who advertises Grade 8 lessons, openly admits that they can't prepare a student to grade 2 then they should be reported to RGT, it is a breach of membership. [/quote]

Is it?

I'd certainly agree that the RGT wouldn't want somebody like that as a member and would look to remove him from their list if this could be established beyond reasonable doubt, but my recollection of RGT membership is that it has procedures in place to prevent someone like this gaining membership in the first place - which would render such rules unnecessary. Once a tutor is a member, getting rid of them is quite difficult IIRC. (To be fair, I resigned my membership when I retired from teaching about 5 years ago so my information isn't up to date.)

It's a very picky little technical point that doesn't affect the main topic at all, but all the same...

[oldslapper]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1426936635' post='2723630']


Is it?

I'd certainly agree that the RGT wouldn't want somebody like that as a member and would look to remove him from their list if this could be established beyond reasonable doubt, but my recollection of RGT membership is that it has procedures in place to prevent someone like this gaining membership in the first place - which would render such rules unnecessary. Once a tutor is a member, getting rid of them is quite difficult IIRC. (To be fair, I resigned my membership when I retired from teaching about 5 years ago so my information isn't up to date.)

It's a very picky little technical point that doesn't affect the main topic at all, but all the same...
[/quote]

Just had a look at the area where you have to state what level of competency and grading you believe you would be able to teach to. And blow me you're right. It just says "over reporting could lead to a loss of reputation" But only if people report poor tutors I guess.
Kind of undermines the purpose of belonging to an association such as RGT if people aren't honest about their level of competency and there are no means of checking and challenging false statements.
I have enjoyed many benefits of belonging to RGT, it would be a shame if it's reputation is undermined by a few.

[timmo]

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1426942323' post='2723724']
Just had a look at the area where you have to state what level of competency and grading you believe you would be able to teach to. And blow me you're right. It just says "over reporting could lead to a loss of reputation" But only if people report poor tutors I guess.
Kind of undermines the purpose of belonging to an association such as RGT if people aren't honest about their level of competency and there are no means of checking and challenging false statements.
I have enjoyed many benefits of belonging to RGT, it would be a shame if it's reputation is undermined by a few.
[/quote] The person i went to had something like a 98.8% pass rate. He is a classical guitar player, and a very good one. I have no idea what he was like as a bassist. I assume most guitar players did pass. No idea what the pass rate is for bass players. I seemed to be his only one at the current time. That is the problem i have with RGT. Fine if you want to go down that road, but if that is the only way you can teach, then you are limited, in my opinion as a teacher. Anyone can teach through a book.On the other side of the coin, he was a really nice person

[oldslapper]

That's a shame you had that experience.

I use my RGT membership for a number of different benefits for myself and students, including new materials, new teaching ideas and aides and handy and relevant articles.
An RGT tutor doesn't have to soley offer exam pathways, I certainly don't. It's not a tutors job to impose exams, or particular books, on a student if it's not what will motivate them to learn, or dare I say it, enjoy learning.

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1426945480' post='2723783']
The person i went to had something like a 98.8% pass rate. He is a classical guitar player, and a very good one. I have no idea what he was like as a bassist. I assume most guitar players did pass. No idea what the pass rate is for bass players. I seemed to be his only one at the current time. That is the problem i have with RGT. Fine if you want to go down that road, but if that is the only way you can teach, then you are limited, in my opinion as a teacher. [b]Anyone can teach through a book[/b].On the other side of the coin, he was a really nice person
[/quote]

(My emphasis) Actually I'm not so sure about that one either as it happens! But I digress...

Trying to remain even-handed (and notwithstanding all that's been discussed up to now), there aren't really any hard & fast rules about teaching what we might call 'popular' music styles and techniques.

In classical tuition the rules and requirements are generally set in stone so that anybody going to learn, say, clarinet will normally have a pretty good idea what to expect.

Everybody here seems to agree that just being a good player isn't enough by itself, but beyond that there are different approaches that can be made to work. Yes a good tutor is likely to be adaptable and organised, but IME tutors can differ markedly in their approach and in their particular strengths & weaknesses. Just because a particular student can't get on with a particular tutor, it doesn't necessarily follow that either is at fault; and even then, it isn't automatically the tutor who is at fault. I won't bore people with sordid details of my teaching nightmares, but I suspect all experienced tutors can relate tales of 'students' they wish had never walked into their studio.

Edited March 21, 2015 by leftybassman392

[timmo]

[quote name='leftybassman392' timestamp='1426948432' post='2723848']
(My emphasis) Actually I'm not so sure about that one either as it happens! But I digress...

Trying to remain even-handed (and notwithstanding all that's been discussed up to now), there aren't really any hard & fast rules about teaching what we might call 'popular' music styles and techniques.

In classical tuition the rules and requirements are generally set in stone so that anybody going to learn, say, clarinet will normally have a pretty good idea what to expect.

Everybody here seems to agree that just being a good player isn't enough by itself, but beyond that there are different approaches that can be made to work. Yes a good tutor is likely to be adaptable and organised, but IME tutors can differ markedly in their approach and in their particular strengths & weaknesses. Just because a particular student can't get on with a particular tutor, it doesn't necessarily follow that either is at fault; and even then, it isn't automatically the tutor who is at fault. I won't bore people with sordid details of my teaching nightmares, but I suspect all experienced tutors can relate tales of 'students' they wish had never walked into their studio.
[/quote] I agree with what you are saying. I am assuming that the RGT course is good, and tutors can be adaptable. All i know is 3 of us went to the same tutor.2 guitar, and me bass. We all said we weren`t interested in grading, all 3 of us were told to get the RGT book, as that was the best way to learn. We all thought it must be true, so we all bought books. It was only when i went to another tutor, i realised how rigid his teaching was. I am not saying everyone found him lacking, as he has a good pass rate.The thing is, if you only have the one tutor, you will never know how good, or indifferent they are. Displaying qualifications such as RGT, you just assume they are going to be good. All 3 of us have different tutors now, and all say the same.