Thinking of getting a cheap power amp

[dave_bass5]

Guys.
While my SA450 and 1212L are fine for most gigs i have a few bigger ones coming up that i know will force me to push the master higher than i would like to on my SA450.
I find that after about 1 o'clock i dont get much more volume, just more compression/limiting so i might get a cheap power amp.

Any ideas what's worth getting based on the fact that i dont want to spend a load (obvious), don't really need more than 1000watts max, in to 4 ohms and light would be good but i know im asking a lot as the digital ones seem very expensive.
I know there are the Bheringer amps and while im not against getting one i want to see what else is around.

While i know i wont need even close to 1000watts its the head room im after.

comments?

[stevie]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='245886' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:22 AM']Guys.
While my SA450 and 1212L are fine for most gigs i have a few bigger ones coming up that i know will force me to push the master higher than i would like to on my SA450.
I find that after about 1 o'clock i dont get much more volume, just more compression/limiting so i might get a cheap power amp.

Any ideas what's worth getting based on the fact that i dont want to spend a load (obvious), don't really need more than 1000watts max, in to 4 ohms and light would be good but i know im asking a lot as the digital ones seem very expensive.
I know there are the Bheringer amps and while im not against getting one i want to see what else is around.

While i know i wont need even close to 1000watts its the head room im after.

comments?[/quote]

The Behringer amps have a surprisingly decent reputation in the pro world. Visit this site: [url="http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/default.asp"]http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/default.asp[/url] and check out the Amp Forum. There are lots of pros on there who really know their onions and I'm sure you'll pick up some useful info.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='stevie' post='245893' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:34 AM']The Behringer amps have a surprisingly decent reputation in the pro world. Visit this site: [url="http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/default.asp"]http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/default.asp[/url] and check out the Amp Forum. There are lots of pros on there who really know their onions and I'm sure you'll pick up some useful info.[/quote]

cheers. Ill have a read over on that site later.
like i say, im not against getting a Bheringer, i was just wondering what else is around that price point.
I only want to use it in mono at 4 ohms at around 800-1000watts so really even the B is a bit more than i need.

[alexclaber]

I don't think you'll get much, if any, more output from putting more power into your Schroeder. Although the voice coils are rated at 1000W total the cones can't move enough to handle more than a few hundred watts without distortion setting in. If you're ever in my neck of the woods you're welcome to test the theory with my PLX 3002 which is 900W/ch @ 4 ohms and 3000W bridged @ 4 ohms.

Alex

[ahpook]

i've got a behrinher ep2500 (2.4kW bridged into 4 ohm) that's up for sale...been gigged as the power amp in my rig about 4 times.

£100 ? it's heavy tho.

let me know if you're interested.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246272' date='Jul 23 2008, 05:25 PM']I don't think you'll get much, if any, more output from putting more power into your Schroeder. Although the voice coils are rated at 1000W total the cones can't move enough to handle more than a few hundred watts without distortion setting in. If you're ever in my neck of the woods you're welcome to test the theory with my PLX 3002 which is 900W/ch @ 4 ohms and 3000W bridged @ 4 ohms.

Alex[/quote]

Alex.
Thnaks for the help and offer. What im really trying to do is to maybe get a bit louder than my SA450 will go but without having the head sound like its running ou of steam. Even just outputting around 500watts but from a power amp i feel i will get more out of the cab.
But, its just theory and ive not really had any experience other than at one sound check i used our Peavey power amp to see what it would sound like and it did sound a lot more open sounding at the same higher levels i had been using the head at.

Ahpook.
Thanks for the offer. Ill pass for now as its just an idea but if i do go the Bheringer route ill PM you.

[alexclaber]

I'd give the Peavey a more thorough test in that case. Most lightweight heads can't sustain full power for very long but it might actually be that the Peavey has better limiting circuitry that makes the squash more subtle - their DDT is rather good. Try it with the limiters switched off too. Once you're putting 500W into a compact cab adding extra power is just more likely to break things, the gain in volume is likely to be negligible.

If you need more output you'd be much better served by using both your heads and cabs at once.

Alex

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246409' date='Jul 23 2008, 09:03 PM']I'd give the Peavey a more thorough test in that case. Most lightweight heads can't sustain full power for very long but it might actually be that the Peavey has better limiting circuitry that makes the squash more subtle - their DDT is rather good. Try it with the limiters switched off too. Once you're putting 500W into a compact cab adding extra power is just more likely to break things, the gain in volume is likely to be negligible.

If you need more output you'd be much better served by using both your heads and cabs at once.

Alex[/quote]

Alex.
Thanks again. I was wondering if it was really worth it. I see people over on TB using 1000watts+ power amps with their 1210 or what ever and i cant imagine those small cabs really handling it.
To clarify, i wanst using the peavey at anywhere near full output. Im sure that this amp puts out close ot 1400 watts bridged in ot 4 ohms (or sometihng like that). I only had it up loud enough to match what i was getting form my SA450 with the master on around 1 o'clock. and it was only for about 5 mins.
At that volume my bass sounded clearer and had more dynamics than when i was just using the SA450.

[synaesthesia]

Suggested steps:

a. get PA support to do the work for you
b. get better PA support, with better monitoring
c. if stage intelligibility of your bass rig is a problem, get a rig that gives you clarity
d. get IEMs
e. learn to hear yourself at an optimum volume that gives you intelligibility

There is a certain elegance in the Allan Holdsworth "I wish the electric guitar were as loud as a saxophone" theory - there is no need to vary your stage volume if you play a bigger arena, after all anyone playing an acoustic instrument, acoustic drums included, cannot really change their situation much - they can blow harder or hit harder as much as they can - but they rely on Public address and stage monitoring to do the work for them.

There was a time when drummers would take bigger drums thinking they sound louder for larger stages. There is a limit to that idea and in the main there is little difference. Ringo went from 20/12/14 Ludwig kit to a 22/13/16 in the beatlemania days - do you think he could hear himself any better? The drummers who went to a 26" got a different tone - that's all. I've done big shows where a properly tuned and mic'ed 18" BD is all you need to sound thunderous. The point? Get a rig for the tone you want, then get the PA to make it louder.

Edited July 24, 2008 by synaesthesia

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='246587' date='Jul 24 2008, 07:33 AM']Suggested steps:

a. get PA support to do the work for you
b. get better PA support, with better monitoring
c. if stage intelligibility of your bass rig is a problem, get a rig that gives you clarity
d. get IEMs
e. learn to hear yourself at an optimum volume that gives you intelligibility

There is a certain elegance in the Allan Holdsworth "I wish the electric guitar were as loud as a saxophone" theory - there is no need to vary your stage volume if you play a bigger arena, after all anyone playing an acoustic instrument, acoustic drums included, cannot really change their situation much - they can blow harder or hit harder as much as they can - but they rely on Public address and stage monitoring to do the work for them.

There was a time when drummers would take bigger drums thinking they sound louder for larger stages. There is a limit to that idea and in the main there is little difference. Ringo went from 20/12/14 Ludwig kit to a 22/13/16 in the beatlemania days - do you think he could hear himself any better? The drummers who went to a 26" got a different tone - that's all. I've done big shows where a properly tuned and mic'ed 18" BD is all you need to sound thunderous. The point? Get a rig for the tone you want, then get the PA to make it louder.[/quote]

In an ideal world your suggestions are all good ones.
I think your missing my point though.

A. As i only need to go loud (and i can do it already, its just that my tone is getting squashed) for one or two gigs that are coming up do you think its really practical for me (or the band) to go out and buy a new car or van and a larger PA just for this? see below ;-)

B. See above. We have a 400watts per side vocal PA. It fits in the cars and can do all our gigs other than if we have to hire one in. And the gigs im talking about certainly dont need that. We use the PA for vocals, a bit of guitar and bass and kick and snare drums. Mainly relying on our amps for the main sound. The plces im talking about are not huge venues but they are busy, noisy ones with the audience close up near the stage. Played them a few times so i know that ill need to turn up quite a bit.

C. As i have said. My sound is getting slightly compressed at higher volumes on the master. No problems with hearing myself. Even my guitarist can hear me clearly on the other side of the stage.

D. Getting IMEs would again be over the top.

E. See C.

I guess i could get a louder amp. Was thinking of a MB SD800 but thats a costly option as well.
I do maybe 60 gigs a year with the rig i have. most of them i dont get the master up to 12'o'clock so my rig doesnt really need changing, just some help for one or two.
Cheers anyway.

Edited July 24, 2008 by dave_bass5

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='246593' date='Jul 24 2008, 08:14 AM']We have a 400watts per side vocal PA. It fits in the cars and can do all our gigs other than if we have to hire one in. And the gigs im talking about certainly dont need that. We use the PA for vocals, a bit of guitar and bass and kick and snare drums. Mainly relying on our amps for the main sound. The plces im talking about are not huge venues but they are busy, noisy ones with the audience close up near the stage. Played them a few times so i know that ill need to turn up quite a bit.[/quote]

That's the problem. Doubling your wattage, assuming you have the speaker cabinets that can take it, will give you +3dB or so. If you are already hitting speaker compression with your head, a larger power amp will not give you much if at all. You could carry another cab, assuming you have pack space and your head or power amp can feed it, it would give you that 3dB boost and reduce your speaker compression. Get in a aproper arrangement and your dispersion would be better, and your stage intelligibility would clean up.

Contrary to popular belief, stage intelligibility does not increase with greater volume. If you are maxed out on pack sapce, use a wired IEM, it is the cost & space of a small behringer mixer, a pair of ear pods you already most probably have, and a few cables, one long one to your pods, one from your rig, and one from your board giving you a bandmix.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='246643' date='Jul 24 2008, 09:40 AM']That's the problem. Doubling your wattage, assuming you have the speaker cabinets that can take it, will give you +3dB or so. If you are already hitting speaker compression with your head, a larger power amp will not give you much if at all. You could carry another cab, assuming you have pack space and your head or power amp can feed it, it would give you that 3dB boost and reduce your speaker compression. Get in a aproper arrangement and your dispersion would be better, and your stage intelligibility would clean up.

Contrary to popular belief, stage intelligibility does not increase with greater volume. If you are maxed out on pack sapce, use a wired IEM, it is the cost & space of a small behringer mixer, a pair of ear pods you already most probably have, and a few cables, one long one to your pods, one from your rig, and one from your board giving you a bandmix.[/quote]


Ok thanks.

Using another cab is out as both my 12xx cabs are 4ohms.
IME's are out of the question. too much money and i dont see the point. i dont have any issues hearing anything.
My cab is rated at 800watts and while i know that means not a lot i don't believe im reaching speaker compression yet. I dont know what im putting out from my MB head but its rated at 500watts max and i only have the master on just over half (again, i konw that doesnt mean much).
when i tried a SD800 last year it had a lot more headroom at the same volume as my SA450so i know its not my cab that is maxing out. It seems that no matter what cab i use ui still get the same effect from the head.
99% on the time its not an issue and its fine. The MB heads combined with a 12xx cab are very loud and punchy and ive done 300+ venues with no PA support and bene told "its a bit loud" by my guitarist.

[coasterbass]

Hi Dave,

I've got a couple of Studiomaster amps available if you're interested. We used them to drive the PA but then I sold all the speakers. I'm going to be using one with my kit once I finally sort my speakers out.

I've got a couple of 1200D's and a 1600D. All very capable and have probably only seen between 10-25hrs of active service each.

Nick

[alexclaber]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='246661' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:01 AM']Using another cab is out as both my 12xx cabs are 4ohms...

...My cab is rated at 800watts and while i know that means not a lot i don't believe im reaching speaker compression yet. I dont know what im putting out from my MB head but its rated at 500watts max and i only have the master on just over half (again, i konw that doesnt mean much)...

...when i tried a SD800 last year it had a lot more headroom at the same volume as my SA450so i know its not my cab that is maxing out...

...99% on the time its not an issue and its fine.[/quote]

For the 1% of the time it's an issue use both cabs. The 4 ohm impedance is not an issue as you have two heads - use one as your preamp and daisy chain the other.

I can guarantee that you are regularly hitting the limiter on your Markbass. If you had a more powerful amp you'd be hitting it a bit less often. However you will simultaneously be running out of excursion on your woofers. When the amp does the limiting you tend to hear the highs getting squashed whilst the lows sound punchy, whilst when the cab does the limiting (through running out of clean excursion) the lows get squashed and the sound gets more trebly and growly (increased distortion).

Having the master halfway means that you're likely to be hitting full power regularly. If this wasn't the case then you wouldn't be able to turn quieter basses up enough to get full power. Many cheaper amps reach full power with a typical bass as low as 2 or 3 on the master volume because of the newbies thinking that the amp that's louder at equal knob settings is the more powerful amp.

The other option, which is far more likely to get you more usable volume than buying a more powerful amp, is to find a compressor pedal that gives you the right kind of squash. Cheaper too. The old Trace Elliot Dual Compressors are pretty gnarly and punchy like that.

Alex

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246730' date='Jul 24 2008, 11:35 AM']For the 1% of the time it's an issue use both cabs. The 4 ohm impedance is not an issue as you have two heads - use one as your preamp and daisy chain the other.

I can guarantee that you are regularly hitting the limiter on your Markbass. If you had a more powerful amp you'd be hitting it a bit less often. However you will simultaneously be running out of excursion on your woofers. When the amp does the limiting you tend to hear the highs getting squashed whilst the lows sound punchy, whilst when the cab does the limiting (through running out of clean excursion) the lows get squashed and the sound gets more trebly and growly (increased distortion).

Having the master halfway means that you're likely to be hitting full power regularly. If this wasn't the case then you wouldn't be able to turn quieter basses up enough to get full power. Many cheaper amps reach full power with a typical bass as low as 2 or 3 on the master volume because of the newbies thinking that the amp that's louder at equal knob settings is the more powerful amp.

The other option, which is far more likely to get you more usable volume than buying a more powerful amp, is to find a compressor pedal that gives you the right kind of squash. Cheaper too. The old Trace Elliot Dual Compressors are pretty gnarly and punchy like that.

Alex[/quote]


cheers Alex.

First off i cant use both rigs. I dont drive so one stays with one band and the other with my main band. No room in the car for both either.
I agree about hitting the limiter on the head. thats why i want to get something that will give me more or less the same volume but without the limiting. I understand about then hitting the woofer limit.
I do find that the master makes a difference up to just over halfway and then just seems to squash the sound the higher it gets. It does get a bit louder but the dynamics get lost.

I use a BBE-optostomp and that works quite well and keeping the peaks in check. even at lower volume i am worried about blowing a driver. I do find i can get louder and cleaner using this, plus it keeps the high notes on the G string from jumping out of the mix.

Maybe ill give up on this idea then. Im sure i can get by with what i have. I know its not ideal for larger gigs but normally i dont have any problems with volume and last time i did these gigs i was using the UL212 and my 1212L is a bit louder so it might be fine.

I just dont want to spend much money on something ill hardly use, otherwise some of the other suggestions would be ideal.


Nick.
I think ill pass on the amps but thanks for the offer.

[alexclaber]

I don't know if this is any use to you but the Series 2 UL cabs and the last generation Schroeder L cabs use very similar Eminence neo speakers. In the mids and highs you can expect the Epis to be more true whilst the Schroeders have a bit of a low-mid boost from the quasi-horn and then reduced uppers mids. In the lows you can model the response as shown in the attachment - the Epifani goes lower and stays flatter whilst the Schroeder has a hump which makes it louder but less deep sounding. (I've assumed 40Hz tuning for the Epifani - fairly typical for a cab like this - and 50Hz tuning for the Schroeder to maximise the loudness - I suspect Jorg has done the same).

For the older B&C speakers and newer Celestions I'd expect a similar result in the lows with more variation higher up.

Alex

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246769' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:24 PM']I don't know if this is any use to you but the Series 2 UL cabs and the last generation Schroeder L cabs use very similar Eminence neo speakers. In the mids and highs you can expect the Epis to be more true whilst the Schroeders have a bit of a low-mid boost from the quasi-horn and then reduced uppers mids. In the lows you can model the response as shown in the attachment - the Epifani goes lower and stays flatter whilst the Schroeder has a hump which makes it louder but less deep sounding. (I've assumed 40Hz tuning for the Epifani - fairly typical for a cab like this - and 50Hz tuning for the Schroeder to maximise the loudness - I suspect Jorg has done the same).

For the older B&C speakers and newer Celestions I'd expect a similar result in the lows with more variation higher up.

Alex[/quote]


Thanks for posting that Alex.
I understand why the 1212L is louder than the UL212 and yes, the UL212 was more fuller sounding but seemed to loose some punch when pushed. No amount of EQ's could get it sounding as loud as my 1210R. I preferred the sound of the UL212 at home levels but i like the full on kick i get with the 12xx cabs. Out front i also felt that while the 12xx dont go down as low as the UL212 i could still hear the low E a lot cleaner and clearer than with the muddy sound UL212 and to my ears the 12xx does a better job of filling in the low end of the mix. especially on the many hoolw wooden stages we play on.
My old UL212 arrived as a S2, then both drivers were changed to B+W's. My 1212L has Celestions in it, my 1210R is an older version, not sure what its loaded with but it will soon have my spare driver form my 1212L in it.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='246796' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:48 PM']I understand why the 1212L is louder than the UL212 and yes, the UL212 was more fuller sounding but seemed to loose some punch when pushed. No amount of EQ's could get it sounding as loud as my 1210R.[/quote]

The greater unEQ'd bottom of the larger cab means that the speakers move more and thus run out of excursion with less power. With the Schroeder having more restricted bottom your amp will find it much harder to push them beyond their limits. The risk you then run into is that if you used a very high power amp to get more bottom you could actually suffer thermal voice coil damage. Adding low-midrange/high-bass boosting EQ to the UL212 won't really make it any louder because your amp still runs out of power at the same voltage as if the EQ was set flat, whilst the 1212L makes more sound for the same voltage.

Having listened to a clip of you playing The Jam I can totally see why the 1212L works so well for you - great tone! I'm more into the deep fat clean thing so the lack of bottom would be a serious problem for me. Horses for courses!

Alex

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246803' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:56 PM']The greater unEQ'd bottom of the larger cab means that the speakers move more and thus run out of excursion with less power. With the Schroeder having more restricted bottom your amp will find it much harder to push them beyond their limits. The risk you then run into is that if you used a very high power amp to get more bottom you could actually suffer thermal voice coil damage. Adding low-midrange/high-bass boosting EQ to the UL212 won't really make it any louder because your amp still runs out of power at the same voltage as if the EQ was set flat, whilst the 1212L makes more sound for the same voltage.

Having listened to a clip of you playing The Jam I can totally see why the 1212L works so well for you - great tone! I'm more into the deep fat clean thing so the lack of bottom would be a serious problem for me. Horses for courses!

Alex[/quote]

Alex.
Yeah, that was a great tone i had. that was in fact my 1210R but the 1212L sounds very close to that, only deeper and rounder.

I agree, i didnt find the EQ on my head did a lot with the UL212 once at gig volume. I tended to boost around 100hz and that helped a bit but it just seemed to get lost out front at some gigs.
The 12xx seem to almost get louder out front. I think we have spoken before about these cabs and the way the mids drop a bit to let the lows come through out front.
Im normally quite impressed with the mix when i go out front. Especially as it can be a bit mid heavy on stage. One of the reasons i wont elevate these cabs.

thanks again for all your help and replies.

[coasterbass]

Returning to the original question (sorry, I lost it when the graph came in! ) I've heard good things about the Crown Xti series which are ridiculously light and go for about £275 on evilbay (new). Same for the new QSC lightweight amps.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='246973' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:03 PM']Returning to the original question (sorry, I lost it when the graph came in! ) I've heard good things about the Crown Xti series which are ridiculously light and go for about £275 on evilbay (new). Same for the new QSC lightweight amps.[/quote]


Ah, now the Crown Xti1000 looks very tempting. and it has a blue LED display. Fantastic, thanks for pointing those out. ill investigate them tonight.
I guess £300 is really my limit and i know i wont get a lightweight digital one for that price but these do seem to be quite light.

The QSC RMX 850 also looks good. not sure if only having 830watts @4ohms would make a big difference though but im sure it would take some of the stress off the Head.

Edited July 24, 2008 by dave_bass5

[coasterbass]

No probs!
It was the blue LED's that did it for me too

Steve-soar used to/still has one of these if you need a personal recommendation

[Happy Jack]

You can buy strips of blue LEDs from Maplins, y'know.

I think I'll go now ...

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='246993' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:22 PM']No probs!
It was the blue LED's that did it for me too

Steve-soar used to/still has one of these if you need a personal recommendation[/quote]

No recombination's needed really. I know of Crowns reputation.
I guess its just finding one cheap enough to make me press the buy button. Still not sure how often i would use it.

Cheers all, off to Maplins now to buy some LED's for my SA450, my LMII and my Hamsters cage.

[Welshbassist]

Which one of you buggers did this then?