Does playing covers sap your imagination and playing

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='222048' date='Jun 19 2008, 12:22 PM']Doing your scales, chords, theory etc is about developing muscle memory and insights so that, when you seek to execute an idea, you are able to do so. Learning to read music has many purposes, one of which would be to allow you to execute the ideas of others. But that particular skill also allows you to record (as in write down) your OWN ideas and recreate them some time later without having to try to 'remember' them. It also allows you to provide instructions for other musicians who agree to work with you in creating your music. All of these skills are necessary to become a rounded player/composer/artist.



The problem with suggesting that playing in a covers band is a a 'learning experience' is not that it isn't. it is, but that what you learn is of limited value and can be learned more effectively and quickly in other ways. If you just learn, by rote, Watt-Roy's line for 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick', you are only able to play that tune that way in that song. If you study that line, comprehend the scales used, the chords and the context in which they are used and the nature of the choices Watt-Roy made, then clarify which technical/motor skills he is utilising and the extent that they can be built upon to increase your OWN creative potential, then you can probably transfer that information to any one of a myriad of alternative situtations and retain the collected information as a lesson for life.

But this assumes several things.

Firstly, that the line involved is so critically original that it warrants that level of investment.

Secondly, that the motor skills required to execute it are something that the developing player needs to acquire (like two handed tapping, it’s a creative choice but I subjectively think it mostly sounds like a bag of spanners being thrown down the stairs – others disagree and are right to do so).

Thirdly, the time it takes to acquire that skill is worth the investment (I have no doubt that I could play like Michael Manring given infinte time and space but, having critically assessed his work (by listening to it), I do not believe that, in order to take my own concepts of musicality further, this amount of effort would be a productive use of my time). Otherwise, thank God that Manring exists and continues to do what he does.

Fourthly, that there is something specific about that particular piece of music that makes it important for [i]me/you[/i] to wish to invest [i]personally[/i] in exploring its mysteries.

To be blunt, at this point in my career, I have yet to find a 'function band' cover I can't play pretty much straight off, as well as if not better than most of my peers and certainly sufficiently well to satisfy any customer (this is not about playing Weather Report or Stanley Clarke covers which never appear at functions but the about playing the usual bubblegum called for by function/covers bands). Its been a LONG time since I actually 'learned' anything technical from playing covers other than how to play those specific tunes, most of which I can take or leave.

The only way to improve is to study music; not licks, riffs, musicians or acres of other people’s basslines but music, the art of it. Learning to write is not about learning to regurgitate other people’s stuff’; thisnameistaken’s girlfriend need to have something worth writing about before she even starts. If people copy other people’s stuff in literature it’s call plagurism and gets you seriously censured and wholly discredited. In music we call it a tribute band!

I sometimes think people are not really aware of what is out there in the world of music and the full potential of music to improve people’s (including their own) lives. They continue to be dazzled by the applause and perceived status achieved and by the reflected glory that is believed to be a consequence of playing ‘the hits’ – I still hear it in jazz (‘he can play ‘Donna Lee’ – so f***ing what? That was nailed three decades ago by Jaco and three decades before THAT by Parker. It’s mostly a party trick and, like all party tricks, impresses the uninformed and nothing more). It’s a hall of mirrors.

I am not saying don’t DO covers – this industry demands it of us and, if there are no other gigs out there, I will continue to do it, but let’s not pretend that there is any nobility in it. It can be fun, in spite of its nature, but it is a crass job that fills our wallets (no shame in that) and is no more creative than flipping burgers. I am sure there are plenty of people out there having fun doing just that.[/quote]

Playing in a covers band was never mentioned, learning covers was and I contend that everyone learns to play other peoples tunes as part of their learning experience, even if its only during their formative years.

I suppose we are all different but I developed both my bass and my guitar technique by learning from others and blending there styles into my own distinctive technique, I doubt there is anyone out there who has developed their own style without learning others first.

Also "playing in a covers band" I would say improves not only your playing but also your stage technique and presentation skills. I would agree there isn't much nobility in playing in a covers band but then again their isn't much either in continuing to churn out garbage original material that no one wants to listen to.

I see lots of original bands on the curcuit but I don't see much originality, most of their material is the same old rehashed stuff we have been listening to in one form or another for the last 40 years or so. If you believe that just by saying I'm not going to play covers and instead churn out crap songs because I am no good at writing original material then you are certainly entitled to that opinion. Personally like a few posters on this forum have stated, I just like playing the bass and just because I play other peoples bass lines doesn't give me less integrity than them in my opinion.

I find many original artists a bit stuck up their own arse, convinced that their material is the dogs bollox when 9 times out of ten its mediocre at best.
And there are many bands & artists I hear on the radio who would do us all a favour by giving up on their music and playing covers ;-)

And I still stick by the literary analogy. When you attend a creative writing course you learn how to write in different styles by studying great literary works, you dont just sit down with a pad and pencil and write a great novel without knowing what a great novel is, and the only way to recognise either great Art of Literature is by studying it.

As I said in the other posting about function bands, the music is subjective. Whether you like Jazz, pop or rock music doesn't mean that one is superior to the other. I find your definition of a lot of pop music as bublegum as ridiculous as you find my description of Jazz as a bunch of self indulgent musicians noodling away for their own gratification.

[cheddatom]

I think we would all agree that music can inspire musical creativity.

I think everyone would agree that listening to a peice of music, and trying to/playing a peice of music are two quite different ways of looking at a song.

Therefore it would only be logical to conclude that playing covers could inspire musical creativity.


I think that (original, and covers) bands that tend to play the same set list over and over are limiting their creativity, as new inspiration can never be found in old (with relation to a specific person) music.

[chris_b]

Lennon and McCartney, Sting, Ray Charles, Miles Davis, Clapton, Jaco, Jamerson all played covers and it didn't dent their creativity in the slightest. Can we move on now???

[Bilbo]

[quote name='chris_b' post='222126' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:38 PM']Lennon and McCartney, Sting, Ray Charles, Miles Davis, Clapton, Jaco, Jamerson all played covers and it didn't dent their creativity in the slightest. Can we move on now???[/quote]

D'ya think? Of course, they are all known primarily for their function band work.

Edited June 19, 2008 by bilbo230763

[jakenewmanbass]

I depped for Carlosfandango (fellow BCer) last weekend.
in the set was Sex Machine. I searched the internet and found several versions and had a really good look at the line. Not challenging technically at all but to nail down with great feeling over and over taught me something. I am always learning tiny details which at my age feels wonderful...

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='222088' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:02 PM']I would agree there isn't much nobility in playing in a covers band but then again their isn't much either in continuing to churn out garbage original material that no one wants to listen to.[/quote]

Chances are they'll get better. They wouldn't get better if they weren't at least trying to produce their own material.

[quote name='ianrunci' post='222088' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:02 PM']I see lots of original bands on the curcuit but I don't see much originality, most of their material is the same old rehashed stuff we have been listening to in one form or another for the last 40 years or so. If you believe that just by saying I'm not going to play covers and instead churn out crap songs because I am no good at writing original material then you are certainly entitled to that opinion.[/quote]

So we should all give up trying to do anything new and stick to playing other peoples' old tunes over and over again, because anything new's going to be derivative anyway?

[quote name='ianrunci' post='222088' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:02 PM']Personally like a few posters on this forum have stated, I just like playing the bass and just because I play other peoples bass lines doesn't give me less integrity than them in my opinion.[/quote]

But does it make you less creative than someone who plays their own music? And more to the point, will it lead to you becoming less creative generally because you're not actively being creative now? Are you even bothered about your own creativity if - as you say - you "just like playing the bass"?

[quote name='ianrunci' post='222088' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:02 PM']I find many original artists a bit stuck up their own arse, convinced that their material is the dogs bollox when 9 times out of ten its mediocre at best.[/quote]

I find many cover bands to be the most unbearable anti-snobs, and most of them suck at covers too.

Let's not get into mud-slinging, eh? Whether a given band is crap or not isn't really relevant to the discussion.

[ianrunci]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='222151' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:57 PM']Chances are they'll get better. They wouldn't get better if they weren't at least trying to produce their own material.



So we should all give up trying to do anything new and stick to playing other peoples' old tunes over and over again, because anything new's going to be derivative anyway?

I never said anyone should give up, just cos I think its crap doesn't mean it is, after all its only my opinion

But does it make you less creative than someone who plays their own music? And more to the point, will it lead to you becoming less creative generally because you're not actively being creative now? Are you even bothered about your own creativity if - as you say - you "just like playing the bass"?

Why would it make you less creative. I still record my own tunes, playig covers for years has only enhanced my songwriting not harmed it. Then again thats only my opionion of course

I find many cover bands to be the most unbearable anti-snobs, and most of them suck at covers too.

Let's not get into mud-slinging, eh? Whether a given band is crap or not isn't really relevant to the discussion.

I'm not mud slinging and my oipinion isn't aimed at anyone on the forum particularly. I did say many not most whereas your reference states that most suck at covers which I would presume would include many people on this forum.

this is turning into another original band V Function band post by the looks of it again. So I think I'll bow out now and leave it to the self righteous [/quote]

[Bilbo]

I think one of the things people forget about composing/songwriting is that, like the mechanics of bass playing, you start as a beginner and get better with [i]practice.[/i] I think there is a tendency in the music business to expect composers/songwriters to nail it 100% the first time and every time thereafter. Its ok to write s*** music, as long as each composition is marginally better than the last. Most of the bands you see doing this stuff don't charge for tickets, its free so enjoy it or leave.

I used to play with Grant Nicholas of Feeder and he used to write the stuff we did with a guy called Brian Sperber (now a NY producer/engineer). The songs were ok, some weak some stronger, but 10 years after I last saw him, I hear he is headlining national and international tours and winning awards for his songwriting. It didn't happen overnight- it took years of writing sh*t songs and playing them live to develop his craft (I don't have an opinion on his material now as I haven't listened to it - I assume it works for some people otherwise he wouldn't still be out there). If he had decided not to bother with songwriting at 18 because Stevie Wonder wrote better tunes, a whole catalogue of music would have been lost. Some may say that would be a good thing . I don't.

Whilst I accept ianrunci's point about stagecraft, I do believe that working only in covers bands and neglecting a more directly creative impulse is counter-productive in terms of developing as a potential artist. Working on your technique in a covers band is not working on your creativity. There is a peripheral benefit of learning an odd lick or working on your phrasing but this marginal to the more quantifiable benefits of studying composition properly. But the creative process is as much a learned skill as playing and developing artists should not be dismissed so quickly. They deserve as much encouragement (and indulgence) as young players.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='222281' date='Jun 19 2008, 04:30 PM']Whilst I accept ianrunci's point about stagecraft, I do believe that working only in covers bands and neglecting a more directly creative impulse is counter-productive in terms of developing as a potential artist.[/quote]

Actually I would also argue that "stagecraft" (rather fluffy word, that, excuse me) would develop more quickly in a band doing originals.

With a function band you're guaranteed a room full of punters. Chances are most of them won't have any particular taste in music and won't often actively seek out live music so they'll probably be more appreciative generally of what you're doing, and they'll know the songs you're playing so you don't need to sell them on anything.

Doing originals you're sometimes lucky to have an audience at all, and if you do get people in they're likely to be music listeners with their own well-defined tastes, so they'll be more difficult to please. And if they haven't heard your stuff before then that's going to be a hard sell.

Maybe in a function band you learn to be slicker, but I think putting up with the struggles of doing originals will give you a better feel for working an audience.

[warwickhunt]

Some people sprout a load of b*ll*cks sometimes.

I've been in some originals bands that have stifled my creativity more than covers bands 'ever' have! Playing music increases your creativity and playing with other musicians, no matter what the context, can and does expand your knowledge base and your creativity.

More importantly, please lets not lose sight of WHY we play music and stop trying to dumb down covers etc

[ianrunci]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='222325' date='Jun 19 2008, 05:05 PM']Some people sprout a load of b*ll*cks sometimes.

I've been in some originals bands that have stifled my creativity more than covers bands 'ever' have! Playing music increases your creativity and playing with other musicians, no matter what the context, can and does expand your knowledge base and your creativity.

More importantly, please lets not lose sight of WHY we play music and stop trying to dumb down covers etc [/quote]

Hence the last line of my last post and the reason I'm giving up on this one

[thisnameistaken]

My apologies for being such a self-righteous bollock-talker. I don't recall doing any mud-slinging at cover bands so I'm curious as to why all this ire is directed at me - maybe I've struck some raw nerves.

Anyway I'll join in the fun by conceding that cover bands do have an important job to do as retirement homes for former musicians.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='222351' date='Jun 19 2008, 05:39 PM']My apologies for being such a self-righteous bollock-talker. I don't recall doing any mud-slinging at cover bands so [b]I'm curious as to why all this ire is directed at me[/b] - maybe I've struck some raw nerves.

Anyway I'll join in the fun by conceding that cover bands do have an important job to do as retirement homes for former musicians.[/quote]

Strange that you think it is directed at you

I was making a sweeping generalisation about b*ll*ck talkers 'whoever they may be'... probably includes me!

[ianrunci]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='222351' date='Jun 19 2008, 05:39 PM']My apologies for being such a self-righteous bollock-talker. I don't recall doing any mud-slinging at cover bands so I'm curious as to why all this ire is directed at me - maybe I've struck some raw nerves.

Anyway I'll join in the fun by conceding that cover bands do have an important job to do as retirement homes for former musicians.[/quote]

actually you did say most cover bands suck. If that isn't mud slinging its insulting none the less.

your last stement I presume was tongue in cheek so I won't rise to that one

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='222351' date='Jun 19 2008, 05:39 PM']My apologies for being such a self-righteous bollock-talker.[/quote]

Heady claims indeed, can we show a little modesty please, I've been talking out of my arse here for months now and have only recently achieved the kind of status you are laying claim to.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='222477' date='Jun 19 2008, 08:48 PM']Heady claims indeed, can we show a little modesty please, I've been talking out of my arse here for months now and have only recently achieved the kind of status you are laying claim to.[/quote]

That's because you've spent so much of your time trying to reproduce other peoples' arse chatter, whereas I've been painstakingly honing my 100% original bollock-talking skills the whole time.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='222481' date='Jun 19 2008, 08:53 PM']That's because you've spent so much of your time trying to reproduce other peoples' arse chatter, whereas I've been painstakingly honing my 100% original bollock-talking skills the whole time.[/quote]
To be honest it looks like it's the other way around!

Anyway, assuming there is a little seriousness left in this debate, here are (why do people always say "is"?) my tuppence:
Playing covers does not sap your imagination and playing. Playing covers instead of original stuff does. I think striking a balance is important, but if you have to devote all of your practising time to one or the other, playing covers is best for getting gigs and having fun, whereas playing originals is better for improving your creativity.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222538' date='Jun 19 2008, 10:45 PM']To be honest it looks like it's the other way around!

Anyway, assuming there is a little seriousness left in this debate, here are (why do people always say "is"?) my tuppence:
Playing covers does not sap your imagination and playing. Playing covers instead of original stuff does. I think striking a balance is important, but if you have to devote all of your practising time to one or the other, playing covers is best for getting gigs and having fun, whereas playing originals is better for improving your creativity.[/quote]

I think you talk b*ll*cks! 'MY' £0.02

[cheddatom]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='222481' date='Jun 19 2008, 08:53 PM']That's because you've spent so much of your time trying to reproduce other peoples' arse chatter, whereas I've been painstakingly honing my 100% original bollock-talking skills the whole time.[/quote]

[SJA]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='222325' date='Jun 19 2008, 05:05 PM']I've been in some originals bands that have stifled my creativity more than covers bands 'ever' have![/quote]

me too- one original band where the guitarist kept nitpicking over what i was playing and singing so much that he might as well have recorded it himself, and then used a tape of it live,

and another where the guitarist only seemed to know the pentatonic scale, and struggled to play anything i wrote, or to transpose even one of his own riffs. learning lots of covers would have help him get out of the rut he was in, even if he was too cynical to learn theory & technique directly.

[Mikey D]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222538' date='Jun 19 2008, 10:45 PM']here are (why do people always say "is"?) my tuppence:[/quote]

Probably because it is a single item.

[Bilbo]

A few points in response:

Whilst I can readily accept that I am capable of talking bollocks (it's part of the human condition), it does seem that anyone here who seeks to take a considered and reasonably intelligent approach to issues of any kind is quickly accused of being arrogant, self-righteous, elitist, superior etc. We are all just trying to make sense of it all. Being told that things that are being said, whether by me or anyone else, are 'b******s' is not contributing to the debate but debasing and serves only to stifle it. How creative is [i]that[/i]?

Thisnameistaken's decription of covers bands as as retirement homes for former musicians is a delight and will be quoted often in sleepy Suffolk

Remembering why I play is why I am getting increasingly saddened by this covers/tribute culture. I don't play to 'have fun' although having fun is a common consequence of playing music. If I want to 'have fun' there are 1,000 other things I could do that would cost less money and require substantively less investment in terms of time and effort. I DIDN'T start to play because I wanted to be in a covers band. I started because I like music. As I have played it now for 28 years or so, I have come to realise that certain aspect of the making of music are more satisfying than others. Regurgitating covers is, for me, one of the least satisfying aspects of musiking and amounts to the aestheic equivalent doing jigsaw puzzles or painting by numbers. I find it undermines creativity because it numbs the senses and stifles the flow of ideas.

Finally, we say 'here [i]is[/i] my twopenn'th' as it is an abbreviation of 'here is my twopenny's-worth' (the worth of two pennys) as opposed to 'here [u]are[/u] my two pennys'. Now I really AM talking b******s.

Edited June 20, 2008 by bilbo230763

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='222722' date='Jun 20 2008, 10:35 AM']Finally, we say 'here [i]is[/i] my twopenn'th' as it is an abbreviation of 'here is my twopenny's-worth' (the worth of two pennys) as opposed to 'here [u]are[/u] my two pennys'. Now I really AM talking b******s.[/quote]
It's a collective noun isn't it? So "is" would be correct. And as Mikey said it's one item, despite the denomination of currency therein.
(jake will not be outdone in talking bollox)

Edited June 20, 2008 by jakesbass

[lowhand_mike]

i think from reading all this that both styles have a place in creativity. covers don't as such sap creativity IF the influences/licks etc are used within the orginals approach to create something new or spark ideas that were not there before. most creative arts rely on influence from previous style and life around or before you. Most bands will list other bands that have influenced them into their current creative approach, be that through just listening or learning songs from them regardless of wether they actually play them live (though alot of them do just that)

and as has seemed to be proven everyone has their right to sit on their side of the fence on this.

and that folks is my utter bollocks, finely honed and un-stifled by cover band playing

[mcgraham]

I think that [i]any[/i] group will sap your imagination and creativity if you let it, be it covers or originals. Beyond heavy improv based groups, can you think of any group that does not keep playing the same songs (written by them or others) over and over (to varying degrees) at gigs/events?

You are responsible for being creative and imaginative. Yes, I acknowledge some environments are easier to be creative in than others, so doesn't that mean if you can thrive in a restrictive environment, then your creative ability will prosper in an unrestricted one.

[i]Why[/i] can you not be imaginative and creative doing covers? Are you [i]really[/i] restricted to doing things [i]exactly[/i] as recorded? Are you telling me that you can't think of something else that could work with that song, or perhaps even improve upon it, either on your instrument or someone else's? Surely that is a great opportunity to be creative and imaginative right there...

Mark