Does playing covers sap your imagination and playing

[Bilbo]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='222752' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:15 AM']You are responsible for being creative and imaginative. Yes, I acknowledge some environments are easier to be creative in than others, so doesn't that mean if you can thrive in a restrictive environment, then your creative ability will prosper in an unrestricted one.[/quote]

Possibly. Good point.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='222752' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:15 AM']I think that [i]any[/i] group will sap your imagination and creativity if you let it, be it covers or originals. Beyond heavy improv based groups, can you think of any group that does not keep playing the same songs (written by them or others) over and over (to varying degrees) at gigs/events?

You are responsible for being creative and imaginative. Yes, I acknowledge some environments are easier to be creative in than others, so doesn't that mean if you can thrive in a restrictive environment, then your creative ability will prosper in an unrestricted one.

[i]Why[/i] can you not be imaginative and creative doing covers? Are you [i]really[/i] restricted to doing things [i]exactly[/i] as recorded? Are you telling me that you can't think of something else that could work with that song, or perhaps even improve upon it, either on your instrument or someone else's? Surely that is a great opportunity to be creative and imaginative right there...

Mark[/quote]

Ahhhh!! the soothing voice of reason.
Thank you Mike.

[mcgraham]

[quote]Ahhhh!! the soothing voice of reason.
Thank you Mike.[/quote]

*looks around for a Mike*

I'll presume you mean me in which case, thank you! One tries one's best.



Mark

P.S. Sorry for the slight facetiousness, I couldn't help myself.

Edited June 20, 2008 by mcgraham

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='222752' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:15 AM']I think that [i]any[/i] group will sap your imagination and creativity if you let it, be it covers or originals. Beyond heavy improv based groups, can you think of any group that does not keep playing the same songs (written by them or others) over and over (to varying degrees) at gigs/events?

You are responsible for being creative and imaginative. Yes, I acknowledge some environments are easier to be creative in than others, so doesn't that mean if you can thrive in a restrictive environment, then your creative ability will prosper in an unrestricted one.

[i]Why[/i] can you not be imaginative and creative doing covers? Are you [i]really[/i] restricted to doing things [i]exactly[/i] as recorded? Are you telling me that you can't think of something else that could work with that song, or perhaps even improve upon it, either on your instrument or someone else's? Surely that is a great opportunity to be creative and imaginative right there...

Mark[/quote]

Yes absolutely right. The most sensible post in this whole windy thread.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='222772' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:31 AM']*looks around for a Mike*

I'll presume you mean me in which case, thank you! One tries one's best.



Mark

P.S. Sorry for the slight facetiousness, I couldn't help myself.[/quote]

My sincere apologies MARK.
Fcck f*** f*** I hate making mistakes like that.

[queenofthedepths]

Thanks for the 2p explanations, guys! I shall remember that.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='222577' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:40 PM']I think you talk b*ll*cks! 'MY' £0.02[/quote]
! Much as I enjoy talking bollocks, I was being serious then. I hope you weren't!?

[quote name='mcgraham' post='222752' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:15 AM'][i]Why[/i] can you not be imaginative and creative doing covers? Are you [i]really[/i] restricted to doing things [i]exactly[/i] as recorded? Are you telling me that you can't think of something else that could work with that song, or perhaps even improve upon it, either on your instrument or someone else's? Surely that is a great opportunity to be creative and imaginative right there...

Mark[/quote]
By doing covers, you are at least restricted a little bit. Unless you start off being reasonably creative, I don't see how you can apply creativity to cover songs!

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222789' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:51 AM']By doing covers, you are at least restricted a little bit. Unless you start off being reasonably creative, I don't see how you can apply creativity to cover songs![/quote]

YOu are making the incorrect assumption that the song is the only potentially restrictive factor.

AS Warwickhaunt and SJA have already stated, an originals band can be the most stifling environment.

IME the most closed minded and snobbish people I've played with have been guitards in originals bands who turn up with a "song" that they've "written" and god help the bassist who plays anything but the roots of his chords. OTOH some of the most open minded and encouraging musicians I've played with have been in covers bands.

It's the individual and the situation and not covers or originals.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='AndyMartin' post='222810' date='Jun 20 2008, 12:10 PM']YOu are making the incorrect assumption that the song is the only potentially restrictive factor.

AS Warwickhaunt and SJA have already stated, an originals band can be the most stifling environment.

IME the most closed minded and snobbish people I've played with have been guitards in originals bands who turn up with a "song" that they've "written" and god help the bassist who plays anything but the roots of his chords. OTOH some of the most open minded and encouraging musicians I've played with have been in covers bands.

It's the individual and the situation and not covers or originals.[/quote]
I wasn't talking about originals bands, though... I just said that playing covers is a restriction. I write pretty much all the music in my band, and I admit that I'm still restricted by my ability to communicate my ideas to the other members and also their ability to play it. However, as a composer, my only limit is my imagination.

[Bilbo]

Ref AndyMartin's point.

But one tosser doesn't change the fact that the levels of creativity possible in a context where the music is being created not replicated or approximated are greater. Just as a couple of great and highly original arrangements of popular songs doesn't excuse the fact that most bands doing covers are reprising the same old same old. I can only report on what I see and that is most covers bands are not hot-beds of original thought.

Edited June 20, 2008 by bilbo230763

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222789' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:51 AM']Thanks for the 2p explanations, guys! I shall remember that.


! Much as I enjoy talking bollocks, I was being serious then. I hope you weren't!?


By doing covers, you are at least restricted a little bit. Unless you start off being reasonably creative, I don't see how you can apply creativity to cover songs![/quote]


hmm, the bulk of our covers follow the original chord structure and timing and have a flavour of the orginal writing, but i wouldnt say we play all of them exactly the same as the original, certainly our guitarist when he goes into a solo does exactly that and very rarely follows the original solo to the letter, in that respect he is certainly creative as every solo is different. only in the case where the solo has a very recogniseable line does he include it.
myself, i do try to follow the bass lines as close to the letter on songs that are again recogniseable but on ones that mooch around a blues scale or root notes i do try and mix it up, even if its just to keep my sanity in check so in that respect i try to be creative.
alot of the time though the bass line IS the tune that people recognise wether they know it or not.

but yes i agree you are restricted a bit by the original writing.

with originals you are creative in the first but then once the song is down you must become totally restriced to the song you have written.

total true creativity surely only comes from playing in an improv situation where you are relying on your knowledge of chord structure licks etc and playing on the spur of the moment, capturing a space in time, rarely to be repeted.

i like this topic it has certainly wetted my apitite for doing some original stuff.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='222853' date='Jun 20 2008, 12:52 PM']Just as a couple of great and highly original arrangements of popular songs doesn't excuse the fact that most bands doing covers are reprising the same old same old. I can only report on what I see and that is most covers bands are not hot-beds of original thought.[/quote]

in that respect i totally agree
its playing just purely for the fun of playing. which is fine.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='222864' date='Jun 20 2008, 01:04 PM']with originals you are creative in the first but then once the song is down you must become totally restriced to the song you have written[/quote]
Not at all! My guitarists don't play their solos the same every time either and to some extent we improvise a bit all the time. An original song written by the band playing it is no more restricting than a cover by somebody else; in fact it's less so because they have a bit more license to do things differently and still call it their own. I think a nice example of that is Pulse by Pink Floyd; listen to some of the bass lines on there played by Guy Pratt compared to the originals!

[mcgraham]

[quote]My sincere apologies MARK.
Fcck f*** f*** I hate making mistakes like that[/quote]

No worries bud, I like the name Mike!

Mark

[6stringbassist]

I played with a band about 2 years ago, the guy wanted everything exactly as per the record, every single thing.

He'd assembled an excellent band, I just couldn't be bothered going back the following week.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='222864' date='Jun 20 2008, 01:04 PM']with originals you are creative in the first but then once the song is down you must become totally restriced to the song you have written.[/quote]

I've found usually songs start out rigid but actually get less well-defined the more they are played. Unless you're playing to a click because some parts on a computer or DAT or whatever - I don't imagine that's much fun.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='222893' date='Jun 20 2008, 01:27 PM']No worries bud, I like the name Mike!

Mark[/quote]


funny that, everyone calls me mark

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222879' date='Jun 20 2008, 01:15 PM']Not at all! My guitarists don't play their solos the same every time either and to some extent we improvise a bit all the time. An original song written by the band playing it is no more restricting than a cover by somebody else; in fact it's less so because they have a bit more license to do things differently and still call it their own. I think a nice example of that is Pulse by Pink Floyd; listen to some of the bass lines on there played by Guy Pratt compared to the originals![/quote]

sorry maybe i should retract that as it could be regarded as little narrow minded.

though alot of the bands that i have seen tend to be faithful to the final recording. i suppose thats exactly the point though, regardless of wether you are playing originals or covers they can both be treated in the same way, strict regurgitation of the material or versions there of. the only real difference is that with the originals you have to write it first. after that its a matter of interpretation.

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='222853' date='Jun 20 2008, 12:52 PM']Ref AndyMartin's point.

But one tosser doesn't change the fact that the levels of creativity possible in a context where the music is being created not replicated or approximated are greater. Just as a couple of great and highly original arrangements of popular songs doesn't excuse the fact that most bands doing covers are reprising the same old same old. I can only report on what I see and that is most covers bands are not hot-beds of original thought.[/quote]

I'm not referring to any particular tosser. I'm talking about my general experience with many bands playing both covers and originals, and that is that the individuals and personalities involved have a greater bearing on creativity than any simple rule about covers or originals.

I've met very few truly creative musicians, and what I've found is that even when playing original music, most are just reprising the the same old same old.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='222935' date='Jun 20 2008, 02:02 PM']I've found usually songs start out rigid but actually get less well-defined the more they are played. Unless you're playing to a click because some parts on a computer or DAT or whatever - I don't imagine that's much fun.[/quote]
If playing the song gives you great satisfaction (I think there's more potential for playing a song [forget the crowd reaction for the moment] to be satisfying if you've written it yourself), even playing it rigidly can be amazing fun. Aren't there any lines you just love to nail?

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222950' date='Jun 20 2008, 02:18 PM']If playing the song gives you great satisfaction (I think there's more potential for playing a song [forget the crowd reaction for the moment] to be satisfying if you've written it yourself), even playing it rigidly can be amazing fun.[/quote]

No doubt about that

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='AndyMartin' post='222944' date='Jun 20 2008, 02:07 PM']I'm not referring to any particular tosser. I'm talking about my general experience with many bands playing both covers and originals, and that is that the individuals and personalities involved have a greater bearing on creativity than any simple rule about covers or originals.

I've met very few truly creative musicians, and what I've found is that even when playing original music, most are just reprising the the same old same old.[/quote]
Are you saying that in your experience, musicians in originals bands tend to be less creative/bigger tossers than those in cover bands? Of course, there's less room for egos in cover bands so maybe that's a point. I suppose, the more creative a band tries to be, the more its members are likely to be arrogant and selfish, preventing the band from actually having a serious creative output. I hope that doesn't offend anyone! I certainly don't think it's true in all cases, but there are a lot of said tossers out there. On the other hand, aren't purist cover band leaders also likely to get really fussy about how the songs they've personally chosen (Marcel Duchamp would call that art) are played? I think I'm sticking by the statement that "originals bands have more potential for creativity than covers bands" as well as "playing originals does more for your creativity than playing covers".
I'm well aware that I'm now talking bollocks.

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222959' date='Jun 20 2008, 02:36 PM']Are you saying that in your experience, musicians in originals bands tend to be less creative/bigger tossers than those in cover bands?
I'm well aware that I'm now talking bollocks.[/quote]

No, not at all

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222959' date='Jun 20 2008, 02:36 PM']I think I'm sticking by the statement that "originals bands have more potential for creativity than covers bands" as well as "playing originals does more for your creativity than playing covers".
I'm well aware that I'm now talking bollocks.[/quote]

i agree with the first point totally. the second point as well as long as the track you are taking (not you personally) doesnt become narrow minded and stifled. but i suppose thats the art in keeping it fresh.
but then that doesn't neccesserily mean (getting back to the original topic) that cover will sap your creativity, again as long as you dont become stifled or blinded by what you are doing.

[queenofthedepths]

Minus one point for an out of context quote..!
If that wasn't your point, what were you actually getting at?

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222967' date='Jun 20 2008, 02:44 PM']Minus one point for an out of context quote..!
If that wasn't your point, what were you actually getting at?[/quote]

me or andy?

[queenofthedepths]

I meant Andy - sorry; you posted whilst I was still typing!