Mixing or matching pairs of speakers.

[machinehead]

Speaker size, I mean...

I have a Markbass 121 combo as my practice, rehearsal and small gig setup.

This little combo is very loud and deep for its size and I love the Markbass sound.

I'm thinking about buying another Markbass 121 cab for use in larger venues.

Question is this... I have a Markbass 151 (15") traveller cab and I'm wondering if there is a good reason to buy another 121 cab? Would I have any advantage sound-wise using a pair of 12" cabs? Or would the combo with the 15" cab be similar?

I think there is some technical reason for using the same size speakers together?

Bit of a silly question I know, but any thoughts and advice gratefully received.

Frank

Edited June 10, 2008 by machinehead

[Happy Jack]

I have four Eden cabs, 2 x XLR210, 1 x NS210, 1 x NS115. I mix'n'match them in various ways according to situation.

If there's a technical reason why I shouldn't do this (apart from getting my impedances right, of course) then I haven't spotted it yet.

As to the sound, most musos can tell the difference between the XLR210 and the NS210, simply because of the quality gap. But adding the NS115 to the NS212 for a mini-stack doesn't produce a radically different sound to my ears. I imagine that I can hear a "warmer" element with the 115 in place, but that's very probably a [i]placebo[/i] effect - I hear it because I've read that others hear it.

[gilmour]

IIIRC You shoudn't really mix speakers of different sizes that operate in the same frequency range because of a thing called comb filtering. Google it and see what comes up. I'm sure BFM or Alex Clabber, will be able to put this more elequently

[bass_ferret]

Comb filtering is what you get with horizontally arranged speakers like in most multi speaker cabs. It means you get exaggerated peaks and troughs in the volume depending on where you stand in relation to your cabs and is probably the main cause for disputes about volume - you are standing in a trough and turn up, deafening the rest of the band who are standing in peaks.

The reason for not mixing different cabs is that the results can be unpredictable. The two cabs will have different frequency response curves and possibly phase differences, so they may well sound sh*t, and as all you will probably hear on stage is the top cab nearest your ears you wont even know it.

Bass players are the only users of amplification that will use different sized speakers for the same frequencies.

You may get more replies if you correct the typo in the heading, as most people wont have a clue abouth mathing pairs of speakers

Edited June 10, 2008 by bass_ferret

[xgsjx]

[quote name='gilmour' post='216340' date='Jun 10 2008, 05:57 PM']IIIRC You shoudn't really mix speakers of different sizes that operate in the same frequency range because of a thing called comb filtering. Google it and see what comes up. I'm sure BFM or Alex Clabber, will be able to put this more elequently [/quote]

I asked a similar question but was combining a different brand of 410 with my 210 combo & BFM said it is not recommended to mix different brands of driver that operate in the same frequency.I believe that using the 15 mb cab with your mb121 would not have this problem as they are the same brand.

My advice is to try it & see how it sounds. You already have the cab & doing so isn't gonna cause any damage (other than to your hearing). If you can, try the 112 cab with your combo & compare.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='216364' date='Jun 10 2008, 06:47 PM']I asked a similar question but was combining a different brand of 410 with my 210 combo & BFM said it is not recommended to mix different brands of driver that operate in the same frequency.I believe that using the 15 mb cab with your mb121 would not have this problem as they are the same brand.[/quote]
No. Unless the cabs have been designed to complement each other - some makers might do this but most probably dont. I thought it was telling that MarkBass cabs all used to have a different footprint to make stacking different cabs at least look untidy to discourage mixing different cabs but maybe it was some other marketing gimmick cos I think they are all the same now.

I had personal experience of this with a Peavey 115BW. I added a Peavey 2x10 and it sounded sh*t - much better with each individual cab, and whats more the 2x10 was actually deeper so I sold the 115 and got another 2x10.

[tonyc090]

Hi there

I have a 1 x 15 STD Mark bass cab for sale at £350 and as new or will swop for Marks 2x10 if your interested.

Cheers - Tony

[chris_b]

Use your ears. There are no technical reasons why different makes of cabs and speaker sizes won't work together. Some do it better than others but in many years of mixing and matching I've never had a problem.
On loud gigs I'm currently using an Epifani 4x10 and a Bergantino 2x10. They sound great. My Boogie 2x10 and 1x15 sounded great. Like I say, have a listen and make your own mind up. Good luck.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Mixing driver sizes is much like mixing tyre sizes. In some rare instances the vehicle has been specifically designed for it, and the tyres specifically matched to the vehicle, and it works well. But otherwise you may end up driving around in circles.

[machinehead]

Firstly, title typo has been fixed. Thanks for pointing that out. Feel a bit stupid !

Thanks for all who replied - lots of interesting input.

My gut feeling was to go with buying a new 12" to match the 12" combo. In the past I had a pair of Markbass 2 x 10s which I stacked vertically for a small footprint four speakers high and the sound was superb.

Sold the pair due to new car with tiny boot.

I was hoping that I might get away with using the 15" to save money on buying more gear when I'm actually trying to reduce !!

Looks like more household clutter is on the way.


Frank

[rodl2005]

[QUOTE]"I had personal experience of this with a Peavey 115BW. I added a Peavey 2x10 and it sounded sh*t - much better with each individual cab, and whats more the 2x10 was actually deeper so I sold the 115 and got another 2x10." [QUOTE]


IME this MAY've been due to the cabs/spkrs being outta phase. I had a similar problem with my old Fender 210PRO when I apired it w/ my Aguilar GS112- Was using just the 1x12" then decided to try adding the 2x10"- & ended up sounding thin & actually better/louder with just ONE cab...which made NO sense as It was making the amp see 4 ohms & therefore 500w instead of 300w. Turns out they were just outta phase with each other(AFAIK-anyway) coz when I plugged em in a different way-daiy chained- they worked beautifully. The 2x10" added a touch of punch & power & VOLUME to the single 12".
These were diff. brands, sizes etc.. & sounded great!!!! Using my (well worn) brain, I've had NO problem mixing spkr size OR brand!
Right now I use my Mark Bass LMII > Aguilar GS112 then for bigger gigs I add an Aguilar GS115 underneath for a superb sounding rig!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='rodl2005' post='216570' date='Jun 11 2008, 02:31 AM'][quote]"I had personal experience of this with a Peavey 115BW. I added a Peavey 2x10 and it sounded sh*t - much better with each individual cab, and whats more the 2x10 was actually deeper so I sold the 115 and got another 2x10."[/quote]


IME this MAY've been due to the cabs/spkrs being outta phase.
[/quote]
Maybe, though I believe you are referring to polarity, which isn't the same thing. With reversed polarity the two cabs would be out of phase pretty much through their entire bandwidth. But even with like polarity two dissimilar cabs will be out of phase at some frequencies. That's because the phase response of every speaker varies with frequency. The only way to be sure that two speakers have identical phase responses, and therefore won't interfere with each other, is for them to be identical.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='216883' date='Jun 11 2008, 02:19 PM']IME this MAY've been due to the cabs/spkrs being outta phase.

Maybe, though I believe you are referring to polarity, which isn't the same thing. With reversed polarity the two cabs would be out of phase pretty much through their entire bandwidth. But even with like polarity two dissimilar cabs will be out of phase at some frequencies. That's because the phase response of every speaker varies with frequency. The only way to be sure that two speakers have identical phase responses, and therefore won't interfere with each other, is for them to be identical.[/quote]
Which is what I said here[quote name='bass_ferret' post='216351' date='Jun 10 2008, 06:18 PM']The reason for not mixing different cabs is that the results can be unpredictable. The two cabs will have different frequency response curves and possibly phase differences, so they may well sound sh*t, and as all you will probably hear on stage is the top cab nearest your ears you wont even know it.[/quote]
Glad I was not talking total bollocks

[lowhand_mike]

so can i clarify, if i were to buy an extension cab for my mag 210, it would therefore be advisable to buy another mag 210 cab, not (as i thought) a mag 115. and it would be even more unadvisable to buy a different brand. correct?

[bass_ferret]

Correct.

[machinehead]

Having previously used a matched pair of Markbass 2 x 10 cabs I can confirm that two identical cabs sound great together.

That is the reason for my original question. I had doubts about using a MB 1 x 15 with my MB 1 x 12 cobmo.

I think I'll probably buy another MB 1 x 12 cab.

Thanks for all the input.

Frank

[rodl2005]

Just to add a ferret into the mix. I LOVE adding my EV 1x15" to my Fender 2x10PRO- both sound Excellent together! Never had a prob. & can't get THAT sound using ANY other size spkr. Need a 15" for this sound! & what a sound! :-)

[chris_b]

At the risk of starting another argument here..... I repeat, it is my experience over the last 10 years that you can successfully run a 2x10 and a 1x15 together and it is my current experience (of 3 months) that I am successfully combining cabs from different manufacturers.
If you don't believe me; Tom Bolus, on TB, seriously rates the Epifani 1x10 combined with the 1x12, and recently has complimented the sound of the Bergantino AE112 combined with the AE210.
Read the objective reviews and reports.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chris_b' post='220334' date='Jun 16 2008, 09:17 PM']At the risk of starting another argument here..... I repeat, it is my experience over the last 10 years that you can successfully run a 2x10 and a 1x15 together and it is my current experience (of 3 months) that I am successfully combining cabs from different manufacturers.[/quote]No one is saying that you cannot use different driver sizes or cabs from different manufacturers covering the same bandwidth and not have a useable result. OTOH if the goal is the best possible result that is obtained by either using identical drivers/cabinets or by using different size drivers in a sytem that has been engineered from the ground up to do so. Using the Chinese Restaurant Menu Method (as in pick one item from column A, one item from colunm is not sound audio practice.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='220337' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:09 AM']No one is saying that you cannot use different driver sizes or cabs from different manufacturers covering the same bandwidth and not have a useable result. OTOH if the goal is the best possible result that is obtained by either using identical drivers/cabinets or by using different size drivers in a sytem that has been engineered from the ground up to do so. Using the Chinese Restaurant Menu Method (as in pick one item from column A, one item from colunm is not sound audio practice.[/quote]
Audio facts are consistent but there are many valid opinions on how you combine those criteria into a successfully engineered bass cab. My problem is that some people here think that your opinions are facts. This is plainly not true. Your opinions of bass cab design are on the margin and people here should realise that.

In another topic you completely dissed Fender and Marshall and then the rest of the industry for “[i]sell(ing) all the mediocre high profit margin junk they can crank out[/i]”. Well, if we all take a step back we will see you standing on your own bitterly shouting at the world, "you're all wrong and I'm the only one who is right", and the rest of the bass cab industry carrying on regardless, successfully making and selling great gear.

Please people; Bill Fitzmaurice's opinion is only one amongst many. Buy your cabs based on what you want to hear, not what he thinks is "[i]sound audio practice[/i]".

I don't like conflict. I'm done with this. Bill, you can have the last word!

[Merton]

Chris, I think you're missing Bill's points. He is merely stating as scientific fact (er, coz it IS!) that traditional cab designs are flawed. He doens't say you shouldn't use them, he just says they MAY cause problems which better designed systems do not experience. End of.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of what sounds good but Bill is merely pointing out the potential problems which could befall you.

I used to run a 2x10 and 1x15 rig and in comparison to my 2x15 or 8x8 rigs I now use it sounded bollox. I've taken Bill's advise onboard, tried it out and discovered that it really does work

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='chris_b' post='220436' date='Jun 17 2008, 10:53 AM']Audio facts are consistent but there are many valid opinions on how you combine those criteria into a successfully engineered bass cab. My problem is that some people here think that your opinions are facts. This is plainly not true. Your opinions of bass cab design are on the margin and people here should realise that.

In another topic you completely dissed Fender and Marshall and then the rest of the industry for “[i]sell(ing) all the mediocre high profit margin junk they can crank out[/i]”. Well, if we all take a step back we will see you standing on your own bitterly shouting at the world, "you're all wrong and I'm the only one who is right", and the rest of the bass cab industry carrying on regardless, successfully making and selling great gear.

Please people; Bill Fitzmaurice's opinion is only one amongst many. Buy your cabs based on what you want to hear, not what he thinks is "[i]sound audio practice[/i]".

I don't like conflict. I'm done with this. Bill, you can have the last word![/quote]


not here to do some chris bashing so dont take it that way

what bill says aren't actually his opnion (well it is kind of) but based on scientific fact.
if you open most bulk built cabs they are just speakers in a box, maybe a bit of bracing and internal damping will be minimal. my combo has no internal damping, its just bare wood. its ported and will have a small amount of internal tuning but not much as its far easier to produce a box than a complicated horned cab. even the seperated cabs boast that their deeper bass response is due to a bigger box not really much else.

that fact is fender and marshall just built there cabs in a convenient aethetical way. the technology just wasnt there to say wether it was right or wrong. things change and technology certainly has, where else would all these amazing basses amps and effects come from, its just the cabs haven't really followed suit. even the 'high end' manufactureres still make cabs in the traditional 2x10, 4x10, 8x10, 2x12 etc, yes the 2xXX cabs can be turned on their side and some people will have discovered on their own that it sounds better that way stacked but the 4xXX and 8xXX cant be changed no matter how you position them. and if you bought 2 1x15 cabs you would naturally stacke them vertically which would be the correct way to do it even if you didnt know it.

no one is saying that what you are doing chris is wrong, or anyone else for that matter, its been done for years and been enjoyed by millions. you pays your money etc it's just if you want the best out of your gear (scentifically/sonically) or just advice on what is going on when you do something with your setup then bill and alex and ferret really are worth listening too. you dont have to take their advice though.

and at no point in this has bill said that his designs should be bought by all as they are the best, he's not selling anything here just giving free advice, his designs sell themselves through other users. do i own one? no. do i want one? yes. will i ever build one? who knows.
and thats just the thing i'll see what i like the sound of and not be told i HAVE to have such and such an amp and cab setup.

i am erring to the side of the 2 2x10 setup but part of me still screams "no the traditional 2x10 1x15 setup" is the right way to go. we'll see.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Merton' post='220453' date='Jun 17 2008, 11:05 AM']....I used to run a 2x10 and 1x15 rig and in comparison to my 2x15 or 8x8 rigs I now use it sounded bollox. I've taken Bill's advise onboard, tried it out and discovered that it really does work....[/quote]
But surely your 8x8 can't sound good as it suffers from comb filtering issues?? Or is that my point; these things can sound good in spite of the science?

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='chris_b' post='220510' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:19 PM']But surely your 8x8 can't sound good as it suffers from comb filtering issues?? Or is that my point; these things can sound good in spite of the science?[/quote]

yeah they can sound good. but could they sound better :ph34r: :brow:

[Merton]

[quote name='chris_b' post='220510' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:19 PM']But surely your 8x8 can't sound good as it suffers from comb filtering issues?? Or is that my point; these things can sound good in spite of the science?[/quote]
And to a degree that's my point too. They CAN sound good in spite of the science but all Bill, Alex and bassferret are giving is the science. Bill is not stating opinion as fact, he's stating fact as fact. He doens't disagree that things may sound good to certain people's ears but that the general design is flawed for best response.