In-ear Monitoring

[coasterbass]

Morning,

This might count as the dullest topic ever posted, and serves no real purpose other than to vent my spleen, but...

I've been looking at in-ear monitoring, primarily for the singers in my band (although i wouldn't say no), but it shocks me how expensive these systems still are. They haven't changed at all in price since they first became available to the mass-market 10 years ago.
Why is it that they command such a premium, when manufacturers such as AKG/Sansom have created budget guitar wireless systems?
Is it to restrict the usage so that the airwves don't clog up? Does anyone know a way to get some on the cheap?

Grrrr

[ped]

I agree, it seems ridiculous considering how cheap wireless bass to rig systems can be. I get around it by using a non wireless system from my pod XT pro but that won't suit your singers unfortunately. I do, however, think they are the best thing since sliced bread and I wish I started using it years ago...

ped

[Adrenochrome]

Our singer has a cheap Nady set-up that she got from the US with 3 receiver belt-packs. It [i]can[/i] work really well but hasn't proved to be that reliable and we've ended up going back to the tarditional way of monitoring. The main problems seemed to be lack of signal strength when there is a lot of metalwork on stage in a confined area, and also the headphones didn't last long with my sweating and leaping about; the connections didn't seem to work well for long.

I think generally you get what you pay for. Regarding the 'bugs' myself and our guitarist have had loads of problems with wireless kits and we're both now using the Samson Airline kit which has been 100% reliable so far.

[Jase]

Our singer uses something called a Tbone??? Think that's the name, not 100% but reckons they're reliable and very cheap.

[coasterbass]

Interesting. Tbone is Thomann's proprietary brand isn't it?? I wonder who actually makes them.

[crez5150]

IEM systems are a lot more involved than just standard guitar systems.... There are in-expensive systems around (dB Technologies, LD Systems, et c...) but they're pretty S**t compared to Sennheiser, Sure and a alike.... You get what you pay for... If you only expect to pay £200 for a system don't expect it to be up to much.

The more expensive systems are generally All metal construction so will last a lot longer than most. Plus there are features such a extended Frequency tuning, higher RF output transmission giving you a stronger and more reliable signal. Better ear buds with a choice of options for different applications..... there are may more features but as said..... you get what you pay for.

[bremen]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='200222' date='May 16 2008, 10:25 AM']Interesting. Tbone is Thomann's proprietary brand isn't it?? I wonder who actually makes them.[/quote]

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_wireless_in_ear_monitoring.html"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_wireles...monitoring.html[/url]

800 or 863MHz?

[Phaedrus]

Even Shure's budget IEMs (PG or PGX, I think) are not reported to be that good.

If you compare IEMs with active floor monitors, the prices are actually similar in relative terms. Our HK Audio PowerWorks RS122MA cost us €300 each (now €400) and they're okay. Volume can't go above 12 or 1 o'clock without a bit of feedback and that's sometimes not enough to give the band what it needs on stage.

In contrast, a bass player I know has his own Dynacord active monitor he brings with him when he does a gig with whatever band he's playing with. It cost almost €1000. He says it's truly more than he'll ever need, with crystal clear and tight punchy sound.

The cost of the ear buds for IEMs is what really surprises me.


Mark

[P-T-P]

I'm using a T-Bone system. 16 switchable frequencies. That plus a set of Shure SC3s is fantastic. All you'll need is either a travel adapter or a 12v DC power supply (got mine on eBay) and you are sorted for about £250.

Sounds great and I wouldn't be without mine.

[RichardH]

I've always wondered - if you go in-ear, then presumeably the whole band needs to do it, and all instruments need to be miked up and going through the PA. IS that the case?

[crez5150]

The whole band doesn't need too..... yes the instruments have to either mic'd or line level into the mixer.... doesn't have to go through the FOH though, just through the Sends (aux) to the IEM's... same as a monitor set-up.

[ped]

You can do it several ways, most people take a feed from the FOH so in theory will have everything in the mix. However some people prefer to independently control levels in their IEMs to make a custom mix for themselves.

Most of the time I have just myself in my IEMs and I can hear the band clearly albeit a bit quieter because I don't use noise cancelling IEMs. I just adjust my own level to match the outside noise and I am left with a very nice sound which is much quieter on stage and easy on my poor lug'oles.

Cheers
ped

[coasterbass]

[quote name='RichardH' post='200378' date='May 16 2008, 01:07 PM']I've always wondered - if you go in-ear, then presumeably the whole band needs to do it, and all instruments need to be miked up and going through the PA. IS that the case?[/quote]



Yes and no...
All of the instruments that you want to hear in the monitors need to be feeding in the PA, in order to get a blended sound. But whether you all go out and buy IEM systems is up to you. Personally I had in mind to keep the floor wedges for half the band and to have IEM's for the singers. For want of a better analogy, its like listening to headphones whilst your hifi is on. You can all hear it, but the sound is better forthe guys with the headphones.

[crez5150]

[quote name='crez5150' post='200396' date='May 16 2008, 01:21 PM']The whole band doesn't need too..... yes the instruments have to either mic'd or line level into the mixer.... doesn't have to go through the FOH though, just through the Sends (aux) to the IEM's... same as a monitor set-up.[/quote]

I should say you want to check your mixer to see how may AUX's you available for monitors..... if your already using wedges I presume your using this method..... you probably know this but you need a separate AUX for each mix

[bassmanady]

We play regulary at three venues with sound limiters,at these the whole band use the Shure PSM 200 IEM.,system.
The drummer uses an electronic kit,and everyone DI's into the desk,so we now have no problem with the limiters,as the sound is being totally controlled by the desk.I agree they are damm expensive for what you get,but they really work well for us.

Edited May 16, 2008 by bassmanady

[WalMan]

I use a db Tech system with Shure E2's as does our vocalist and with the better set of 'phones I am happy to do so. I think mine cost me around £350 a couple of years back and I picked up the E2's on eBay for about £30

Our second (stand in for keyboards) guitarist also uses 'phones but straight off the sub mixer with no radio, just a long lead.

The drummer & guitarist refuse point blank because they say it makes them feel isolated - and it can though I tend to just pop one side out.

Having said that my initial foray into IEM was problematic in getting a mix that stayed even, but that was until our sound guy threw a load of cash at the PA & invested in the [url="http://www.aviom.com/Applications-1/Monitor-Mixing.cfm"]Aviom[/url] system. I now have an A-16R in my rack and can run an A-16II off that if the rack is not accessible, and set my own monitor mix - mind that isn't cheap.

If you are thinking of going the IEM route I would suggest that you hire a system for a few gigs to see how you get on. You might like it, but you could just as easily hate it and feel cut off from the audience and rest of the band.

For bass, you need to be able to get the bass, along with bass drum & snare into you mix at a reasonable level to be able to keep in sync with your drummer, and the rest of the band [i]probably[/i] won't want a mix anything like yours so multiple submixes on your desk is a must unless you have something like the Aviom system

Edited May 16, 2008 by WalMan

[crez5150]

+1 for the Aviom..... we use one in the band too.... the pods are great.... we have our pods connected to Sennheiser 300 Series IEMs so we can be wireless as well as creating our own personal mixes.... awesome system.... never ever go back to humping amps and wedges ever again....!!!!

[Mottlefeeder]

[quote name='ped' post='200397' date='May 16 2008, 01:22 PM']...Most of the time I have just myself in my IEMs and I can hear the band clearly albeit a bit quieter because I don't use noise cancelling IEMs. I just adjust my own level to match the outside noise and I am left with a very nice sound which is much quieter on stage and easy on my poor lug'oles.

Cheers
ped[/quote]
This may be a daft question, but if there was room for a headphone amp in your bass' electronics cavity, and you used that as a personal monitor, would that do the same as your current IEM?

I've been thinking about making a belt mounted DI box with a built-in headphone amp, so I am interested in your thoughts.

[ped]

[quote name='Mottlefeeder' post='200612' date='May 16 2008, 06:08 PM']This may be a daft question, but if there was room for a headphone amp in your bass' electronics cavity, and you used that as a personal monitor, would that do the same as your current IEM?

I've been thinking about making a belt mounted DI box with a built-in headphone amp, so I am interested in your thoughts.[/quote]

Before I got the pod that was an idea I had too - I thought a Y cable coming from my bass, one to the amp and the other to a headphone amp would work well. However using the system I do now I have greater control over the signal and I get the signal post processors so I can hear effects and EQ, essentially exactly what goes to the PA/FOH mix.

I think what you describe would work though, but not sure I would want to modify my bass. How about having a unit in your rack which splits the signal to DI/1/4" out and a 3.5mm headphone jack with an inline volume control for on the go adjustment?

FYI I use Shure E2c's with the foam inserts so that just the right amount of noise comes in and the bass sounds incredible through them - having recorded a lot with the pod I know that they faithfully reproduce exactly what goes down to the recording.

A soundman told me about another system which may be of interest. Apparently made by Sure it is a belt pack with a couple of ambient mics built in and an input/output for a bass and a headphone jack. Essentially the condenser type built in mics pick up stage noise and you can adjust the level of this via the unit, and blend yourself in too. Sounds very interesting, but I can see it being a bit bulky and power hungry...

Cheers
ped

[crez5150]

[quote name='Mottlefeeder' post='200612' date='May 16 2008, 06:08 PM']This may be a daft question, but if there was room for a headphone amp in your bass' electronics cavity, and you used that as a personal monitor, would that do the same as your current IEM?

I've been thinking about making a belt mounted DI box with a built-in headphone amp, so I am interested in your thoughts.[/quote]


Can't see the point of having it built in your bass amp..... there are already a few belt mounted products like that from Beyerdynamic, Radial and also Canford do one too

[Mottlefeeder]

[quote name='crez5150' post='200633' date='May 16 2008, 06:43 PM']Can't see the point of having it built in your bass amp..... there are already a few belt mounted products like that from Beyerdynamic, Radial and also Canford do one too[/quote]
I wasn't aware of those - I was mainly thinking of tapping into the signal chain upstream of the instrument volume control, so you could mute the sound to your amp, but still hear the bass while you checked the tuning etc.

[JakeBrownBass]

My 4 piece band use these.

[url="http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/PersonalMonitorSystems/us_pro_PSM200_content"]http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/Per..._PSM200_content[/url]

We play to a click as we have sampling. The reason we all have is so we all have click so we dont have to count in on every song!

One reason we went for these rather than some of the more expensive ones is the fact that they have 2 inputs with 2 outputs.

This ment that if we don't have enough aux's from the desk, we can plug our chosen instrument/vox into the front of it aswell as a bandmix & click in the other.

-Jake

[Adrenochrome]

We cheated when we ran the cheap Nady system - we just put all the vocals through the IEMs and had the volume low enough so we could still hear the backline and drums as well as the vocal feed.

[martinbass7750]

[quote name='jake_tenfloors' post='200647' date='May 16 2008, 07:00 PM']My 4 piece band use these.

[url="http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/PersonalMonitorSystems/us_pro_PSM200_content"]http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/Per..._PSM200_content[/url]

We play to a click as we have sampling. The reason we all have is so we all have click so we dont have to count in on every song!

One reason we went for these rather than some of the more expensive ones is the fact that they have 2 inputs with 2 outputs.

This ment that if we don't have enough aux's from the desk, we can plug our chosen instrument/vox into the front of it aswell as a bandmix & click in the other.

-Jake[/quote]


What do you think of the PSM200? I'm thinking of getting one so your views would be appreciated.