waldemar Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Hi all. I'm recording with my band this coming Thursday evening and I'm debating what gear to take in with me. Here are my choices: 1. Straight out of a DI box into the desk (with a feed going into my combo purely for monitoring). 2. DI out the back of my GenzBenz Shuttle 3.0 combo. 3. Hire a Bassman 100 to drive my GenzBenz 2x10 Focus cab and mic it all up. 4. Hire a Bassman 100 and some sort of vintage cab and mic it all up. Here's the thing. The guy that's recording us did this quick and dirty test during one of our rehearsals: http://soundcloud.com/schweinhaxe/why-dont-you-do-right Even in this very rough mix I think the bass sounds half decent but he's keen that we use an old school rig. He's a really nice guy, he knows what he's talking about and you can tell that he wants to do a great job so I'll probably hire that Bassman and do it his way - but really - is this going to make that much of a difference in the 5 hours we have in the studio? Just seems like added ball-ache... Opinions? w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Good evening, waldemar... You're probably also going straight to the desk anyway, so that he may mix down between 'straight' and rig. Take the Fender stack and enjoy; don't even think about it. Just my tuppence worth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 (edited) How are you going to be recording? All live, or tracking the instruments individually? How big is the studio live room? Big enough to do justice to mic'ing up an amp? IMO when you're paying for studio time it's not a good idea to be messing about with unfamiliar gear. If you really want to hire stuff in make sure you get a band rehearsal with it first so that you can get a sound your are happy with dialled in. Also 5 hours isn't very much time - you'll probably spend at least half of this setting up and getting a basic drum sound - all the more reason to stick with gear you know. As for recording the bass my preferred method is a DI direct from the bass (as a safety for re-amping or using with amp sim plugins) and a mic on the most appropriate sounding speaker. I rarely bother with a DI from the amp, as it's only a part of the total bass sound, but is already too coloured if you need to go back and consider an alternative bass tone for the track. Edited December 3, 2012 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassPimp66 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Do what the sound engineer recommends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 All of the above makes sense. Like I said - the guy's very knowledgeable and there's no reason to not do as he's asking but it's interesting to see how this divides opinion. Another friend of mine who's spent a lot of time in studios insists that the most versatile instrument in there is the mixing desk - maybe this guy's hoping to bypass the amount of post work that needs to be done - and that's fair enough given the limited time he'll be spending on it. Cheers. w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 If you trust the engineer and he has a proven track record / recommendations etc... then trust his judgement. He's probably thinking 4 steps ahead to what the bass will sound like in the mix - and that's what counts. Tracking bass isn't about keeping bass players happy, it's about the finished product - though a happy bass player helps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shizznit Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 DI into the desk is perfectly fine. I haven't recorded with a mic'd up bass rig for years. If I am at someone else's studio that has a great preamp I will go into that. As already mentioned, re-amping is a very common and effective method that works very well with guitar and bass. Something I do all the time at my home studio whereby I can't crank up a mic'd up amp (yes...I am known to the police!). I like the sound of a mic'd up rig, but I find bass cabs to be quite noisy and its a pain in the arse to soundcheck through the desk especially when you start faffing around with mics and axis positioning. Producers barely have enough patience mic'ing up drums, so by the time they get to your bass most on their patience has already been used up! Folks like to record very quickly these days. Digital recording has taken some of the craft out of using a mic, amp and room. Every time I hear "Oh...I have a plugin that can do that!" A little piece of me dies inside! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Do what the engineer says. If he's got a good track record and he makes good sounding recordings then why wouldn't you listen to the guy? Surely you chose him based on the quality of his past work? Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Never mind what he wants you to sound like; what do [i]you[/i] want to sound like? If the engineer's any good he can easily fatten up the bass and add some "Vintage" vibes via the desk, but do you need it? I think you sound fine on that recording. Call me old fashioned, but I'd turn up with my gear and sound like me. My basses sound great so I'd probably just DI anyway. What basses do you have? I'd take a couple to try before I'd worry about hiring amps. So what do [i]you[/i] want to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 A few more questions: What is this recording going to be for? A demo? to get more gigs? as a stepping stone for "bigger" things? For a single? Have you used any of the gear that you are thinking of hiring before? For me in the studio it's all about getting a great performance. Sure you want to sound good too, but sympathetic playing with a good feel even if the sound isn't quite right trumps a poorly played but great sounding bassline (because the unfamiliar sound affected the playing). The studio environment where every aspect of your performance is under the microscope can be intimidating enough without throwing unfamiliar and strange sounding amps into the mix. IMO experimenting with new gear and alternative sounds at a recording session is for when you are booked in for a month at Sawmills, not when you are trying to record a few tracks in 5 hours at your local demo studio. If you've used the gear you are considering hiring before and know how to get the right sound for your band out of it quickly then by all means go for it. However if you are going to spend precious time trying to dial in your tone, your not going to win any favours from your band when you run out studio time before the singer has finished recording the vocals. As for the studio engineer imposing his own sound on your band, I have mixed feelings. If I was recording with a big name producer who was being paid lots of money to craft my band a guaranteed massive selling hit record, then I'll go with any sound he thinks will make the song be fantastic. However for a local studio engineer (and from what you are saying this guy is an engineer not a producer) I'm not so sure. If he can provide excellent sounding recordings that he's made of similar sounding bands (done in the same 5 hour time scale) then maybe I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. There have been two occasions in the last 10 years when for one reason or another the band I've been playing with as acquiesced to the wishes of the studio engineer in the choice of sounds. In both instances the end result was disappointing and ultimately discarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Wiith 5 hours you are doing a rough preproduction demo, nothing more. Cut down on time wasted by doing what the engineer says, to the letter. It may not be exactly your sound, but in the time you have it will deliver the best sound he can get for you. You havent booked enough time to be playing about, chances are your drummer will use a lot of the studio kit too, since if they are any cop he will have one set up and ready to rock right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted December 4, 2012 Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 >You havent booked enough time to be playing about Yep, you're exactly right, Si, which is why it's a bit funny that he's after using a vintage rig that isn't mine... I'd have thought that for what we're doing (a basic demo to help us get more gigs) a DI would have sufficed, which is why the question of whether this was going to make that big a difference arose. Like I said before, he's a good guy and he's been fantastic to have around when he's done the sound at a few of our gigs. I'll take both rigs and see what happens on the day. I'm fairly easy about the whole thing and in this case happy to do as I'm told. Hehe - for the record, I can be unpacked, plugged in, tuned up and ready within 5 minutes... Probably less. Won't be me that's wasting time..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Whose recording is it anyway? The band's or the studio's? I'm assuming that the OP is using his own rig in the recording posted. It sounds appropriate to the song and the OP is familiar and comfortable with how it sounds in a band situation. If the studio engineer want to play at producer then he should also record a DI from the bass and re-amp into whatever he wants at his own time and expense. Edited December 4, 2012 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) [quote name='waldemar' timestamp='1354636681' post='1888486'] >You havent booked enough time to be playing about Yep, you're exactly right, Si, which is why it's a bit funny that he's after using a vintage rig that isn't mine... I'd have thought that for what we're doing (a basic demo to help us get more gigs) a DI would have sufficed, which is why the question of whether this was going to make that big a difference arose. Like I said before, he's a good guy and he's been fantastic to have around when he's done the sound at a few of our gigs. I'll take both rigs and see what happens on the day. I'm fairly easy about the whole thing and in this case happy to do as I'm told. Hehe - for the record, I can be unpacked, plugged in, tuned up and ready within 5 minutes... Probably less. Won't be me that's wasting time..! [/quote] You can yes, but he has to get drum sounds - and if your drummer is using his full kit then that can be a significant deal, new heads, proper tuning, mic positions etc, in a 'real' recording environment drum sounds alone are a day of effort - no joking at all! You woudl want to allow him a good 45 minutes, after the kit is set up. This i going to tape, there will be precious little time to fix it later, so it has to be bang on on the way down. Unfortunately there int enough time for that, so he will have to make do with 15 minutes tops. Let him do it how he knows best then. He has to get bass sounds - the less variables here the better - I bet he takes a DI and a mic on the front of the rig he knows, and blends a bit of the grind from that rig in with the DI. Simply put a mic'ed cab will need to be close mic'ed so as not to get too much spill. This means it will be the sound of the cone rather than the cab (no port assisted low end then) plus the extra low end from the proximity effect, which will really be more low mid due to the cone not extending all the way down. No matter what he does the DI will be better for the bottom octave/fundamental of the note on the bottom five frets of the bass. So blend the DI below around 150Hz with the mic above and you get the best of both worlds. He will probably print both so he can change it per song at mix time. In reality the less variables he has here the better though, so he may choose the blend on the strength of the first song and print it blended. Consider yourselves lucky that he has given it a seconds thought. Of course he may go the simplest route and just have the rig, and eq some low end out of (virtually) nothing. Time time time.... He has to get guitar tones, so an SM57 right at the centre of the cone and a ribbon off to one side and angled is generous. The 57 for the crunch, the ribbon for warmth, smoothness and body, blended to taste. But your guitarista will want to hear it and add some special advice. If he has any sense the producer switch will be employed to achieve the guitarists needs at that point. Again expect the result to be tracked as a single blended track to remove options blindness later, you have no time for that at all. Keys? DI unless its a real Hammond, if he is sensible he will keep this mono, stereo keys are rubbish in a mix unless you limit their spread to almost mono anyway, the keyboard player is over 'there' at a gig, not spread the width of the stage! Pad sounds can be more stereo, but you don't have time to get clever (you don't have time to do more than a couple of songs in point of fact) Guitar solos will need overdubbing, and to get a great mix some rhythm guitar parts should be doubled if time allows, it sounds much much better to have the guitar doubled and hard panned in a mix, always does. Vocals, will need overdubbing unless there is a separate vocal booth (which will in all likelihood sound pants, and unless he has a really good reverb it will always sound a bit dodgy compared to a great live room overdub). Your vocalists ability to nail takes quickly is going to be a massive deal breaker on this, there is no time for clever comping. So 2 hours to get everything ready is tighter than a tight thing. 3 or 4 takes a track to get backing and you are looking at two tracks at most, because the vocal is going to take as long as the tracking does (I budget 2x the tracking time on vocals if I can, and the same time again for BVs) That 5 hours doesn't include mixing does it? Because if it does you are getting into unrealistically silly territory. You are going to get one or two roughly mixed demo tracks back for your investment. A proper mix takes at the very least 8 hours - in reality more like 15 IME. Of course you can mix quicker, but its not going to be anything like the same result.... The harsh reality is 5 hours is going to sound as good as you can play, and he can get sounds, and you have given him precious little time for that, so he is going to need to fall back on tried and tested formulae to get you a result in his studio with the kit h knows best, that he can mix in the allotted time. [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1354638559' post='1888531'] Whose recording is it anyway? The band's or the studio's? I'm assuming that the OP is using his own rig in the recording posted. It sounds appropriate to the song and the OP is familiar and comfortable with how it sounds in a band situation. If the studio engineer want to play at producer then he should also record a DI from the bass and re-amp into whatever he wants at his own time and expense. [/quote] Five hours mate, 1,2,3,4,5. No time for reamping at all, that is just not sensible in the time frame IMHO. That time would be far better spent on vocals IME - punters care more for the vocal than the rest of it, as long as the rest of it sits together well. If they want to get all precious about how it sounds, then by all means block book a week and do it properly, otherwise let the engineer do his thing. Or don't if you don't trust him, but in that case, use a different studio. In any case be realistic in your expectations! Edited December 4, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Actually the guy engineering has to be the producer too in these cases, since there is no one else there to do that role - I am assuming you will be tracking live as far as possible, and so there will be no one to listen in the control room as each take goes by. He will run the session, he will make decisions regarding good versus bad takes all the time, he will be the extra ears, the quality control, the nursemaid to the band, he will play psychologist to the performers in order to achieve the best result. It absolutely goes with the territory IME. If you make him deal with new kit as well you may get a great result or not, if he has a bit of gear he is saying use, then he probably can quote you a half dozen reasons why it will work better for him on the day, and subsequently you. Why not ask him for all the gory details of his thought process here up front, and some tracks to listen to with said amp on while you are at it.... And it is the studios session, unless you pay for it it is their multitrack tape too in point of fact (or data). You have bought a two track stereo mix of the session unless you agree up front to having stems run off, or buy the actual multitrack reel if it goes down to tape. Either way you have absolutely no dibs on his mixing technique at all so you wont get a protools session out of him for love nor money (or the equivalent DAW project file) since that skill is what he brings to the table. Edited December 4, 2012 by 51m0n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted December 4, 2012 Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 >if he has a bit of gear he is saying use Nope, he's not recommending using gear that he has access to already, he's recommending that I bring along a vintage set-up to compliment the type of music we're recording. Yes, I'm being totally realistic regarding what we'll get out of this - part of me thinks that we'll be lucky to get a single recording finished let alone the three we're planning on doing... and I'd be happy with just that, in all honesty..! He'll mix the audio in the week or so after the session so there'll be a fair bit of time for post. It'll be interesting to see how this all pans out. Right again on the vocals - we have two females fronting and it seems that putting a mic in front of 'em gives 'em ADHD - great fun but terrible as far as getting stuff done goes... w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 [quote name='waldemar' timestamp='1354642578' post='1888634'] ....he's recommending that I bring along a vintage set-up to compliment the type of music we're recording.... [/quote] Don't you and your bass playing compliment the music when you play, already? With your current rig? Surely you do. Your sound is fine. So he wants to change you. Why would he want to do that? Is he asking any one else to fundamentally change for this session? I'd stick with what you've got. You already sound just right for the music you're playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) In 5 hours, I doubt much of that will be about getting a great bass sound...he will just want something he can work with, so you need to be quick about getting it..and helping him out. Use the gear you know... and make sure your kit is good and ready to go. Edited December 4, 2012 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Well best of luck with it whatever you choose. Do be completely rehearsed as a band with a click/clap track before going into the studio Do have a great time and try and zone out any stress going on Do play us the results Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted December 5, 2012 Author Share Posted December 5, 2012 Cheers all. A few opinions there, all with merit - I spoke to our keyboard player earlier who has had a fair bit of past experience in the studio and he reckons that in the time we've got it's not worth dragging in new gear and just going with DI. Yep, if we had the place for a week then different story... I'll have a chat with the engineer beforehand - to be honest he'll probably be thanking his stars by the time the vocals are down... Most certainly will post back once the results are in... w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldemar Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 Had an email yesterday with an attached mix. Here it is: [url="http://snd.sc/Y2mDDH"]http://snd.sc/Y2mDDH[/url] I ended up going through a SansAmp Bass Driver DI (now I want one). I think it's a bit treble-y at volume (especially the crash at the end) and the bass could do with lifting in one or two places, but generally I'm impressed. Your thoughts, gentlemen? w./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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