Marvin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340145177' post='1700102'] Marvin, re-quoting myself, not being vain or 'owt : "that's nothing to do with just music. check out how many local pubs disappear every day. 'super' - market forces 'ennit" i guess, as a capatilist, you'll just have to accept market forces... [/quote] I'm not a capitalist. SImply pointing out the sheer bloody hypocrisy of people who moan about the music industry being about just making money. Of course it's about making money. Record labels aren't charities, social enterprises and set up just to piss about. They're there to make money, that's what they do, wtf else did people think they were? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.i.stein Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340145362' post='1700105'] I'm not a capitalist. SImply pointing out the sheer bloody hypocrisy of people who moan about the music industry being about just making money. Of course it's about making money. Record labels aren't charities, social enterprises and set up just to piss about. They're there to make money, that's what they do, wtf else did people think they were? [/quote] sorry mate. if music is about making money .... eeeuuuggh . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='phil.i.stein' timestamp='1340145492' post='1700106'] sorry mate. if music is about making money .... eeeuuuggh . [/quote] Really? It's always been about money. Everything's about money, that's the world we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340145106' post='1700100'] You missed the point entirely. The argument is made that musicians rather than making music from recordings make an income from live performance. This is not possible if venues are shutting down or people aren't getting paid. Although perhaps it being the same ethos of not wanting to pay for anything is running through both. Even the notion that festivals would generate incomes is a non-starter, with several big festivals not going ahead last year due to poor ticket sales. [/quote] Its a global recession and everyone is skint. The first things that go when you're skint are luxuries, like expensive festival tickets... As far as I can see, the biggest problem at the small scale of the market is massive oversaturation. Supply massively outweighs demand. There are a seemingly infinite number of bands out there. A bar manager is never going to pay a band a living wage when instead they can get four or five naive young bands to indulge in pay-to-play and take all the financial risk themselves. And then it becomes self-defeating. Venues put on sh*t bands because they're cheap. sh*t bands don't attract paying punters. Don't bring in paying punters and the venue won't pay a decent wage. Repeat. Venues aren't just shutting because no-one wants to pay for gigs. They're shutting for loads of reasons---the pub industry is struggling, promoters have got lazy and put on any old sh*t so don't attract any regular punters, etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340144338' post='1700079'] To be blunt, I don't believe that. For instance I've seen reports that suggest the same people who download the most films are also the same people who buy the most DVDs. Businesses need to change and evolve, or they die. The music business is no different. [/quote] Just because they buy more DVDs doesn't lesser the impact they have on the films they download? I agree with you in that if nothing changes the music business will be forced to change, and not to the benefit of the artist as far as I can see. Morally it's not the business that should change, but the ones committing the crime. Business: "Dear Society, please stop stealing from me, it's ruining my business and the manufacturer's business." Society: "So? Deal with it - adapt." See how that doesn't make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340145623' post='1700108'] Really? It's always been about money. Everything's about money, that's the world we live in. [/quote] If you're going to play the capitalist card then its even more obvious that the music industry has to change. When customers won't buy your product anymore you need to find a new business model or die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340145778' post='1700111'] Just because they buy more DVDs doesn't lesser the impact they have on the films they download? I agree with you in that if nothing changes the music business will be forced to change, and not to the benefit of the artist as far as I can see. Morally it's not the business that should change, but the ones committing the crime. Business: "Dear Society, please stop stealing from me, it's ruining my business and the manufacturer's business." Society: "So? Deal with it - adapt." See how that doesn't make sense? [/quote] I also don't think it makes sense that record companies make more profits than musicans do. Lots of things in society don't make sense when you look at them in an ideal manner. But you can sit about going "oh this is so unfair" or you can do something about it. As for the dvds---file that one under "if they wouldn't have bought it anyway then they're not your customer". Edited June 19, 2012 by uncle psychosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Music isn [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340145623' post='1700108'] Really? It's always been about money. Everything's about money, that's the world we live in. [/quote] The music business might be all about money, but I'd bet the majority of people on here pursue music because of their love for it and don't actually make any money from it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340141957' post='1700005'] I sincerely hope that none of you start grumbling if say someone starts 'not paying' for the goods or service that generates your income. After all if lots of people started following suite what could be done about it? [/quote] Happens all the time doesn't it? And when it does, people find another way of earning money, like get another job. But the music industry seems to be in denial about things changing so they're not even looking around for another 'job' - just trying to prolong the old one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340146076' post='1700117'] I also don't think it makes sense that record companies make more profits than musicans do. Lots of things in society don't make sense when you look at them in an ideal manner. But you can sit about going "oh this is so unfair" or you can do something about it. [/quote] Why shouldn't record companies make more than the artist? It's just business. The artist signed the contract - the record company puts their music out there and pays them an advance based on how much money they think their music will bring in. The company pays for all their expenses and advertising and takes all the financial risk - the artist gets to do music for a living and if successful makes a fair amount of money whilst they're at it. Fair deal to me? Should the factory workers get paid more than the factory manager? Me doing something about it is stopping using these sites and then posting an article on here and hoping some people will tag along. Until a decent enforceable law gets passed/these sites come down that's the only way it's going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340146076' post='1700117'] As for the dvds---file that one under "if they wouldn't have bought it anyway then they're not your customer". [/quote] AKA if the convenient option to illegally download it wasn't there then they probably would've bought it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340147134' post='1700134'] AKA if the convenient option to illegally download it wasn't there then they probably would've bought it. [/quote] No, I don't buy that. I watched some sh*t film on the TV the other night but I'd never in a million years have paid money to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340147348' post='1700136'] No, I don't buy that. I watched some sh*t film on the TV the other night but I'd never in a million years have paid money to do so. [/quote] The difference is the TV channel paid to show that film whether you liked it or not. People won't download films they don't like. Edited June 19, 2012 by Ben Jamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If you bought the music you illegally downloaded then musicians would have earned some money. You illegally downloaded that music and didn't pay any musicians. So you took their music with out paying for it. That's as stealing as shop lifting no matter how aggressively you try to justify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethfriend Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Come to think of it if we are getting all morally superior about copyright infringement = stealing, how is getting a tune stuck in your head all day not stealing? There's also nothing physical removed or stolen (just like with mp3s) and for all intents and purposes you have made a copy (just like with an mp3) and can recall it at will (just like on an mp3 player). I dare say you wouldn't always 100% of the time go out and buy a physical copy of the track either. It's money out of artists pockets I tell ya! So there we have it conclusive proof that copyright infringement is not stealing - but it is a crime (albeit one that gets into the realms of being silly when you try and define it) don't do it... I've had "don't stop believing" stuck in my head all day so I might owe the cast of glee a few bob. Edited June 19, 2012 by garethfriend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I would have no problem downloading Elton John's whole back catalogue (if I could be arsed) without a twinge of conscience. He has enough cash to fill the Albert Hall from floor to ceiling with used fivers. But I wouldn't download a new or non mainstream band's music as the amount of units they sell/don't sell is the difference between being kept on or dumped by their record company. I've seen myself download an album then, because I was racked with guilt, go out and buy the CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 <p> </p> <p><br /> [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340142525' post='1700020']<br /> <br /> <br /> I agree that illegal downloading may help artists get out there. But honestly, I have never streamed/downloaded a song, liked it, then bought the album. I have however streamed/downloaded a song and then streamed/downloaded the rest of the tracks from the same site. Convenience. And this is what I imagine most people do (as is supported by the statistics of sales etc etc). 'Spreading the word' seems a bit of a cop-out really to me really. If I steal a bass from a guitar factory, I'll just tell the Police that I was planning to play it at my gigs and at some point a couple of people might think 'Hey, cool bass' and buy one.<br /> <br /> [/quote]</p> <p> </p> <p>I downloaded and paid for in rainbows. I actually paid more for it than I would for a CD, cos I hadn't remembered CD's are cheaper now. </p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1340134719' post='1699819']<br /> It's a sad day when musicians no longer see the value of music.<br /> [/quote]</p> <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </p> <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">what do you make of Bill Drummond's latest project? http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/jul/25/billdrummond</p> <p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> </p> <div> </div> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The music business models are rubbish partly because our whole economic system is still in transition from a system of physical commodity exchange to a system where information is the dominant commodity. Information was exchanged before before but the scale now is so much greater cos the exchange network is so much bigger and more intricate. You can't treat information like it's a discrete physical object and expect it to behave, they have fundamentally different properties. Luckily music isn't primarily a product of economics, but like economics itself it's a product of culture, and very luckily indeed the music industry and music aren't the same thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340145754' post='1700110'] Its a global recession and everyone is skint. The first things that go when you're skint are luxuries, like expensive festival tickets... As far as I can see, the biggest problem at the small scale of the market is massive oversaturation. Supply massively outweighs demand. There are a seemingly infinite number of bands out there. A bar manager is never going to pay a band a living wage when instead they can get four or five naive young bands to indulge in pay-to-play and take all the financial risk themselves. And then it becomes self-defeating. Venues put on sh*t bands because they're cheap. sh*t bands don't attract paying punters. Don't bring in paying punters and the venue won't pay a decent wage. Repeat. Venues aren't just shutting because no-one wants to pay for gigs. They're shutting for loads of reasons---the pub industry is struggling, promoters have got lazy and put on any old sh*t so don't attract any regular punters, etc etc. [/quote] You've just validated the point then that people will not pay for music anymore, whether it be recorded or live. [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340145896' post='1700113'] If you're going to play the capitalist card then its even more obvious that the music industry has to change. When customers won't buy your product anymore you need to find a new business model or die. [/quote] I'm not playing any card, simply pointing out a fact. Music is commodified and as such the people who make it have been able to earn an income from it. Now that looks like it won't be possible anymore because an ever increasing number of individuals believe they shouldn't have to pay for music in any format. The response of people who defend this 'non payment' stance is to glibly reply that the music industry has to change. Change to what? There's never an answer or solution given, just 'you must change'. Recording, live, streaming none of them work. So the industry will die because there is no other business model, something the people who won't pay won't face up to. So kiss goodbye to music. [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1340146616' post='1700126'] Happens all the time doesn't it? And when it does, people find another way of earning money, like get another job. But the music industry seems to be in denial about things changing so they're not even looking around for another 'job' - just trying to prolong the old one. [/quote] Change to what? As above, just saying change isn't an answer is it. Edited June 20, 2012 by Marvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340147433' post='1700139'] The difference is the TV channel paid to show that film whether you liked it or not. People won't download films they don't like. [/quote] Yes but my point was that it was free to me. It didn't cost me anything to watch it. I would never have paid any money to watch that film. There has to be a realisation that some people will never buy your product, but they will watch it / listen to it if they can get it free. Those people are not your customers and you'll never be able to stop them so we just need to forget about them and move on. [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1340148701' post='1700152'] If you bought the music you illegally downloaded then musicians would have earned some money. You illegally downloaded that music and didn't pay any musicians. So you took their music with out paying for it. That's as stealing as shop lifting no matter how aggressively you try to justify it. [/quote] Who is this aimed at? There's no-one here that I can see who is actually a downloader, from what I can see? [quote name='garethfriend' timestamp='1340148737' post='1700153'] Come to think of it if we are getting all morally superior about copyright infringement = stealing, how is getting a tune stuck in your head all day not stealing? There's also nothing physical removed or stolen (just like with mp3s) and for all intents and purposes you have made a copy (just like with an mp3) and can recall it at will (just like on an mp3 player). I dare say you wouldn't always 100% of the time go out and buy a physical copy of the track either. It's money out of artists pockets I tell ya! So there we have it conclusive proof that copyright infringement is not stealing - but it is a crime (albeit one that gets into the realms of being silly when you try and define it) don't do it... I've had "don't stop believing" stuck in my head all day so I might owe the cast of glee a few bob. [/quote] I like it. Saying "downloading is stealing" is factually wrong. And being factually wrong is never a good place to start a discussion that you want to win. [quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1340171186' post='1700201'] The response of people who defend this 'non payment' stance is to glibly reply that the music industry has to change. Change to what? There's never an answer or solution given, just 'you must change'. Recording, live, streaming none of them work. So the industry will die because there is no other business model, something the people who won't pay won't face up to. [/quote] Well for starters they have to stop treating their customers as criminals before they've even bought your product. If people want electronic format music then provide it to them---in a variety of good quality formats. Give them a choice between flac, ogg, high VBR mp3, etc etc. Not some highly compressed DRM-ridden piece of crap like some of the music companies have been trying to push on people. Sony even went so far as to put root-kits on some cds for goodness sake---Dear Sony, if I bought your cd you should not treat me like sh*t. Yours, a customer. The film industry are even worse for this. Buy a blu-ray or dvd these days and you get thanked for that with five minutes of (unskippable) trailers that you have to sit through every time you want to watch it. And then, even though you bought their dvd, you get a lovely annoying ad saying "Don't steal DVDs, its bad, mm-kay". Meanwhile, all the pirates out there who've downloaded it have it in a format that skips straight to the feature with none of the sh*tty, annoying ads. Rewarding people for buying your product with an inferior experience to that you get from stealing it is just moronic. This comic sums a lot of it up quite nicely I think: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones [quote]So kiss goodbye to music. [/quote] Reactionary nonsense. How many people on basschat actually make money out of music? And yet we all keep doing it, day after day after day. Edited June 20, 2012 by uncle psychosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340174613' post='1700217'] Yes but my point was that it was free to me. It didn't cost me anything to watch it. I would never have paid any money to watch that film. There has to be a realisation that some people will never buy your product, but they will watch it / listen to it if they can get it free. Those people are not your customers and you'll never be able to stop them so we just need to forget about them and move on. Well for starters they have to stop treating their customers as criminals before they've even bought your product. If people want electronic format music then provide it to them---in a variety of good quality formats. Give them a choice between flac, ogg, high VBR mp3, etc etc. Not some highly compressed DRM-ridden piece of crap like some of the music companies have been trying to push on people. Sony even went so far as to put root-kits on some cds for goodness sake---Dear Sony, if I bought your cd you should not treat me like sh*t. Yours, a customer. The film industry are even worse for this. Buy a blu-ray or dvd these days and you get thanked for that with five minutes of (unskippable) trailers that you have to sit through every time you want to watch it. And then, even though you bought their dvd, you get a lovely annoying ad saying "Don't steal DVDs, its bad, mm-kay". Meanwhile, all the pirates out there who've downloaded it have it in a format that skips straight to the feature with none of the sh*tty, annoying ads. Rewarding people for buying your product with an inferior experience to that you get from stealing it is just moronic. [/quote] You did pay to watch the film though. You pay your TV license right? You pay Sky/Virgin Media/BT for any package you might have? That's you paying to watch that film. The view count of advertisements on that channel etc etc is how the broadcaster makes their money, which pays for their right to show the film. Through this chain by watching that film on TV you have paid the people who own the copyright to it. iTunes provides a vast library of good-quality music and is easy to use. Has really it got to the point where we're justifying pirate over legal because we can't be bothered to sit through a few trailers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) [quote]You did pay to watch the film though. You pay your TV license right? You pay Sky/Virgin Media/BT for any package you might have? That's you paying to watch that film. The view count of advertisements on that channel etc etc is how the broadcaster makes their money, which pays for their right to show the film. Through this chain by watching that film on TV you have paid the people who own the copyright to it[/quote] My point wasn't about the legality of it. My point was purely that some people will watch stuff "for free" but never consider paying for it. Thats all. [quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1340176153' post='1700230'] iTunes provides a vast library of good-quality music and is easy to use.[/quote] The last time I used iTunes I could only download sh*tty quality mp3s that were locked to iTunes. To get them onto my mp3 player I had to burn a cd from iTunes, then rip it to a format of my choosing. Maybe they've finally woken up and realised how stupid that system was. [quote]Has really it got to the point where we're justifying pirate over legal because we can't be bothered to sit through a few trailers? [/quote] So you think it makes sense for an industry to provide an inferior product AND treat their paying customers like criminals? Edited June 20, 2012 by uncle psychosis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340174613' post='1700217'] This comic sums a lot of it up quite nicely I think: [url="http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones"]http://theoatmeal.co...game_of_thrones[/url] [/quote] It does. It showed there are a number of outlets for legally downloading and streaming things. A lack of patience because you really want to watch a TV show isn't a justification at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The only reason my band is still going today is because of illegal downloading and file sharing. The existence of the internet and this form of distribution has revived my band. Our original record company went bust in 1993, we released some stuff ourselves in 2002 but the back catalogue was no longer officially available. Interest grew due to file sharing, so much so that we reformed and our back catalogue was rereleased from 2009 and sells out of every run. If it was not for illegal streaming and downloading the band would no longer be working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Jamin Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1340176515' post='1700233'] My point wasn't about the legality of it. My point was purely that some people will watch stuff "for free" but never consider paying for it. Thats all. The last time I used iTunes I could only download sh*tty quality mp3s that were locked to iTunes. To get them onto my mp3 player I had to burn a cd from iTunes, then rip it to a format of my choosing. Maybe they've finally woken up and realised how stupid that system was. So you think it makes sense for an industry to provide an inferior product AND treat their paying customers like criminals? [/quote] Yes but the example you gave wasn't free in any way. Free is someone illegally downloading that film, and they won't download random films they don't like. I put music on my phone from iTunes the other day my dragging the files from my iTunes music folder to my phone. Simple. It's not an inferior product at all though - it's a few commercials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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