LukeFRC Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 [quote name='eude' timestamp='1332944825' post='1595257'] I'm proud as punch to play Scottish bass guitars! Eude [/quote] I'ld love to play scottish guitars Currently one german and 3 japanese- if I stick a preamp designed and built in england and sold by a scot in the borders in does that count? At one point me, my bass, and my amp were all built within 10 miles of essex as each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1332945173' post='1595266'] but then it needs musicians to push the envelope and demand new things to do it with better- envelope pushing design for no reason isn't going to work [/quote] Give me a break... I'm doing my best! ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjam Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I'm collecting my ACG J Type 4SU, (serial number 0096), this morning. I met Alan at this year's Moffat Bass Bash - along with some other fine, upstanding members of the bass community - and I was hugely impressed by the built quality of his basses. As you'll see in my signature below, I don't have a 'conventional' arsenal of basses. I've always liked the shape and feel of the Fender Jazz, but I don't think you get a lot of instrument for the money unless you go down the Mexican route. I'll post some pics and a review once I've had it for a few days, but my initial impression was a bass with a wide tonal palette that sits very comfortably under your hands. Stay tuned for further developments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 not trolling here, just intrigued.... I can go on the ACG website and buy an amazing jazz influenced bass- and the ones listed at the mo come in at £1600 or so. I can go on the overwater website and their take on a Jazz bass is about £2100 starting price... both are made in the UK, both have pickups and pre's from the same makers (different specs) and admittedly Alan doesn't have to pay for any medicine or eye checks up here but what's the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eude Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='peterjam' timestamp='1333096368' post='1597172'] I'm collecting my ACG J Type 4SU, (serial number 0096), this morning. I met Alan at this year's Moffat Bass Bash - along with some other fine, upstanding members of the bass community - and I was hugely impressed by the built quality of his basses. As you'll see in my signature below, I don't have a 'conventional' arsenal of basses. I've always liked the shape and feel of the Fender Jazz, but I don't think you get a lot of instrument for the money unless you go down the Mexican route. I'll post some pics and a review once I've had it for a few days, but my initial impression was a bass with a wide tonal palette that sits very comfortably under your hands. Stay tuned for further developments! [/quote] Fantastic news Peter, 0096 is a really classy looking beast, and I know it will play and sound as good as it looks. Can't wait to hear how you get on and congratulations! [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1333097165' post='1597182'] not trolling here, just intrigued.... I can go on the ACG website and buy an amazing jazz influenced bass- and the ones listed at the mo come in at £1600 or so. I can go on the overwater website and their take on a Jazz bass is about £2100 starting price... both are made in the UK, both have pickups and pre's from the same makers (different specs) and admittedly Alan doesn't have to pay for any medicine or eye checks up here but what's the difference? [/quote] I guess like a lot of business people, there are a lot of factors in play, but the main ones in my opinion here are "how much the item actually costs to make" and "how much you can get away with charging". I think a lot of luthiers overcharge, but their instruments are essentially worth what people are willing to pay for them. ACGs are still fairly new when compared with the majority of successful UK builders, the main ones having been around 10 years +, so I guess the price reflects that a little too. Having said that, I've had a go on more boutique bass guitars than I can remember and ACG's blow most of them all out of the water, bar a couple which they where easily a match for with regards to design, ergonomics, fit and finish, and when it comes to tone and flexibility, you'll struggle to get more options than you get with an ACG EQ, so they win hands down where that's concerned. It's highly unlikely I'll ever go anywhere else for bass guitars from now on, I've got two ACG's so far and plans for many many more, plans that I'm keeping hidden from my wife of course. I really hope Alan doesn't read this thread, he might put his prices up!... Eude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Thing is you stick these ACG jazzes against any over £1000 bass and they look good. If I was buying my first 'proper' bass and was looking then the £200 extra over a USA fender.... there's just no comparison is there? I guess also there is the relative newness factor, I know an even-newer-luthier-who-just-set-up-and-is-on-basschat-a-lot is similarly competitive in pricing. the ACGs also manage to look good too. As much as say the overwater jazzes look amazing there was a secondhand one a while back that WoT was looking at- it was tempting but just too bling with loads of daft features and stupidly fancy woods. not my style. the ACG's just look good Edited March 30, 2012 by LukeFRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Well done Pete, have fun with that new bass. I could see it happening I think that if Alan stopped making his own designs customised by buyers then it would indeed be a very sad day. But if his skills are directed at improving an existing design whilst being financially more able to work with 'real wood' then it's cause for celebration surely? Oh and I can understand a preference for a radiused board but I love the asymmetric neck profile. Lukes comment above about Jazzes and P basses being suited to certain styles of playing also makes a lot of sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1333101454' post='1597316'] Lukes comment above about Jazzes and P basses being suited to certain styles of playing also makes a lot of sense to me. [/quote] enjoyed looking at your gear list and trying to work out what type of music you like playing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1333101671' post='1597325'] enjoyed looking at your gear list and trying to work out what type of music you like playing [/quote] A good point Luke. I'm playing what the band plays. Punk/Rock at the moment and the bass missing from the list is a CIJ Fender Jazz Power Special that I was going to keep original but has now morphed into something a little 'different' I need to sell the Clover, not because it not brilliant but because I've got too much gear (again). Edited March 30, 2012 by GreeneKing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='eude' timestamp='1333099602' post='1597260'] I guess like a lot of business people, there are a lot of factors in play, but the main ones in my opinion here are "how much the item actually costs to make" and "how much you can get away with charging". [/quote] On the whole, and with the exception of "cost plus" contracts, I think that the selling price must be relatively unrelated to the cost of manufacture. The SP is much more closely related to the balance of power between buyer and seller hence premium products command premium prices (I know this balance works in the supply side too, but when you're looking at volume selling compared to low volume independents it's not hard to see where the focus will be). In the case of basses I think that the higher labour charge that small independent luthiers will factor in will be offset by relatively low overheads, whilst a large factory churning out instruments will have to cover high overheads but have low unit labour costs. There will be some difference in raw material costs of course, but I suspect that this is not massive. I'm now wondering what the gross margins look like on a £200 Fender-alike, a £1k Fender USA and a £2k+ high end Fender alike. I suspect the MIA Fenders will have the best GM as a percentage. Does anybody know - come on you whistle blowers!? All imho of course!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eude Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='ead' timestamp='1333104341' post='1597383'] I'm now wondering what the gross margins look like on a £200 Fender-alike, a £1k Fender USA and a £2k+ high end Fender alike. I suspect the MIA Fenders will have the best GM as a percentage. Does anybody know - come on you whistle blowers!? All imho of course!!! [/quote] I really don't have a clue what it would be, but given the price of the MIA Fenders, or Musicmans for that matter, factoring in the non fancy woods and the bulk they'll be bought in multiplied by the amount of demand, I imagine it will be a fairly large percentage of the list price. These kinds of manufacturers will likely spend a lot of cash on R&D, where a independent luthier will evolve slowly as they build more and more instruments, so I guess that will account for some of the overall profit but having said that, I haven't seen any real evidence of R&D from Fender for a very VERY long time, MM on the other hand do seem to try new things fairly often. Eude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I once went to try a fender in a shop in the sale. The shop assistant for some reason told me it's only a little above X which is the cost price for us. If I remember cost price was about half the shop price (which includes the VAT) [quote name='ead' timestamp='1333104341' post='1597383'] On the whole, and with the exception of "cost plus" contracts, I think that the selling price must be relatively unrelated to the cost of manufacture. The SP is much more closely related to the balance of power between buyer and seller hence premium products command premium prices (I know this balance works in the supply side too, but when you're looking at volume selling compared to low volume independents it's not hard to see where the focus will be). [/quote] of course it is going to be related! You write a business plan- for a small maker you work out what it costs to build, how much your time is worth and a margin of profit. Add the tax ontop and viola! Bigger companies are going to look at a price point - say £1000 and then design a product that can sell at that price point, covers costs (including marketing) but allows healthy profits for the company and the retailers who sell on. I'm pretty sure the price of an ACG is very carefully related to the cost of building, and for fender way way more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1333132820' post='1597984'] Except if you go on one of these Govt funded business courses thats not what you are taught. Basically told don't be too cheap as people will think you are shoddy and don't be too dear or you will lose business aim for the middle ground. They will tell you to bump the price up if you are selling a similar product a lot cheaper. [/quote] maybe why british business is caught in mediocrity.... It's how you sell/frame the item too- which isn't done amazingly in the bass world. I would love to work on advertising/marketing strategies for a bass builder. A small producer, or Warwick have a lot of untapped potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1333134291' post='1598010'] Bass world is sh*te. But in the terms of Brands it is the manufacturers screwing the bass end. Want Bass well take 12 guitars for every 2 basses and we will talk. Warwick supposedly have serious demands and I know over here a lotof the brands don't get sold because they expect the shops to keep too much for such a small market. The stuff simply wouldn'tmove quick enough to be worth their while. I tried a few manufacturers that have dealers in Belfast who don't keep ANY bass products from them. Even as a (planned) Bass only stockist they wouldn't deal as they have dealers within a certain mile radius. It was "okay they don't sell any of your bass gear I only want bass gear so there will be no toes stepped on, no crossed paths" Still no dice. [/quote] Thats why I find it more interesting how Shuker, or ACG or Osprey market themselves. I'm not sure shop based would be the best way for a lot of brands (with the exception of specialised shops) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1333131171' post='1597955'] of course it is going to be related! You write a business plan- for a small maker you work out what it costs to build, how much your time is worth and a margin of profit. Add the tax ontop and viola! Bigger companies are going to look at a price point - say £1000 and then design a product that can sell at that price point, covers costs (including marketing) but allows healthy profits for the company and the retailers who sell on. [/quote] With respect I would suggest that as the market is dominated in volume terms and also sales terms by the big players that build to a selling price and that therefore, by and large, it's the SP that dominates the relationship in the market. Similarly for small shops I'm sure if Overwater et al tried selling their basses at Ritter prices (why are they soooo expensive) volumes would take a hit. I think you're correct in that the luthier will try to work out the break even point for his/her wares and then test the price elasticity of the market bearing in mind that once a price point is established it's quite hard to put prices up significantly. Anyway it's a very interesting subject is economics, and excellent for debating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='ead' timestamp='1333135793' post='1598033'] With respect I would suggest that as the market is dominated in volume terms and also sales terms by the big players that build to a selling price and that therefore, by and large, it's the SP that dominates the relationship in the market. Similarly for small shops I'm sure if Overwater et al tried selling their basses at Ritter prices (why are they soooo expensive) volumes would take a hit. I think you're correct in that the luthier will try to work out the break even point for his/her wares and then test the price elasticity of the market bearing in mind that once a price point is established it's quite hard to put prices up significantly. Anyway it's a very interesting subject is economics, and excellent for debating! [/quote] (i even think we are saying more or less the same thing there!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1333134655' post='1598017'] Thats why I find it more interesting how Shuker, or ACG or Osprey market themselves. I'm not sure shop based would be the best way for a lot of brands (with the exception of specialised shops) [/quote] I think exclusivity is a big deal here. Balancing marketing spend in whatever form that takes, and its hoped for impact on sales vs. the available capacity to keep lead times realistic for customers so they feel they are getting something special and personalised and are therefore happy to wait for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1333136002' post='1598036'] (i even think we are saying more or less the same thing there!) [/quote] Oh good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='ead' timestamp='1333136067' post='1598038'] Oh good [/quote] anyway, we've gone way off topic.... tell us about the ACG you're going to get made... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1333137268' post='1598063'] I would have one down side to that. I've mentioned ACG to a couple of my mates. One lives not far away and the other I reckon would have a serious orgasm over them. Thing is neither use Internet forums. One only uses the Internet in a passing fashion. They have no idea what I am talking about . [/quote] but if you bought one you could show them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1333136954' post='1598059'] anyway, we've gone way off topic.... tell us about the ACG you're going to get made... [/quote] I got as far as it's going to be a bass with 4 strings. Quite good progress for an evening's work I feel Oh and there may be a complete absence of frets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1333140520' post='1598125'] Cheap skate [/quote] ask nicely and you are 24 bits of metal closer to your first ACG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ead Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Every little helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjam Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Ooh, I can feel the weight of expectation from my fellow bass players now that I've bought an ACG J-Bass! I've had it plugged into a small amp - not the big rig in my signature - and it feels and plays really well. The bandwidth of tonal variation is astounding, even through small speakers, and it just [i]feels[/i] right in my hands. I think Alan is doing the right thing making these types of basses. The people who buy personal, custom-built instruments are few and far between and they need to have firm ideas about what they do and don't like - there's no point in spending £2000 on an instrument and discovering it's not what you want. Any maker would be disheartened, having built a custom bass only to see it hang on a wall or sit on stage un-used. There has to be an entry level that moves players from the Gibson/Fender/Rickenbacker etc. camp and into the custom-build market. Although basses and bass players have made huge strides in development, (this is beginning to sound like a Charles Darwin presentation!), there's still a big conservative element out there. Witness the spate of signature basses - much as I admire the playing of Geddy Lee, Chris Squire and Jaco Pastorius, I don't want their basses - I want mine! And while we're on the subject, a Roger Waters signature Precision? Really? (Engage old fart mode) - I've lost count of the number of younger musicians that I've told, "spend your money on a really good instrument - it's worth it in the long run." Also, it prevents that 'I'd be happy if I had one more bass/pedal/amp/cabinet' syndrome we all know and love. It's very easy to focus on your gear and lose sight of the real reason we play bass - to express ourselves and hopefully give enjoyment to the audience. (Disengage old fart mode) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass Wielder Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 News flash: I have an ACGuitars jazz bass at home now. So for those wanting access to see/hear/try (without going to Scotland) come on down to Aylesbury!! As I said in a previous post "wicked!" The one I have is: 0103 ACG J Type 5HU Body woods: Alder Neck: 3 piece Acrylic Impregnated Birdseye Maple board with 24 frets. Dual action trussrod and carbon rods. Carved with an asymmetric profile. Satin finish. Hardware: ACG FB humbuckers in a 25mm wide casing. Hipshot Type A bridge with 18mm spacing Gotoh GB7 plus Hipshot string tree. Dunlop dual design straplocks. Gotoh battery box. Electronics: East UK custom U-Retro pre-amp. Volume/Blend stack. Bass boost/treble/pull bright stack. Mid frequency/mid cut/boost stack. Tort scratchplate.. Gloss finish. Hiscox hardcase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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