EssentialTension Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 As has already been pointed out, 'authenticity' is going to be a contested concept. If one were considering the 'authenticity' of Led Zeppelin, it might be worth examining the sequence: Muddy Waters, You Need Love (credited: Willie Dixon) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM8_HuQ0b34[/media] The Small Faces, You Need Loving (credited: Ronnie Lane, Steve Marriot) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpnF62TNYoM[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Led Zeppelin, Whole Lotta Love (credited Robert Plant, Jimmy Page) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mln0RciE2o0[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Authentic is a terrible word to use in relation to music. It's far too hard to apply it to anything because all music owes something to someone else. But you're right to lump 'authenticity' and 'credibility' in the same category because they're both buzzwords used in music journalism to add weight to someone's point of view. People get bogged down in concepts when in fact, today's 'credible' is tomorrow's forgotten record. Vice versa too, for example Queen were never a credible band, and yet from a modern perspective they embodied a lot about them that most musicians and non-musicians alike would consider 'credible' and 'authentic' (the blend of theatrics, genre-spanning, immensely difficult arrangements both vocally and instrumentally). Is there a specific time of music you were looking at? Is it current popular music, i.e. what's getting airplay? Or is it more underground/indie? Is it older music? There are way too many variables in the question for there to be anything real to get stuck into, it's hard to generate discussion on something so spectacularly broad and undefined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 WTF has 'authenticity' to do with music FFS?! If this question has been set by your 'educational' establishment I will not be able to sleep tonight for anger and disillusion with our educational establishment. What a ridiculous f***ing question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332199383' post='1584859'] WTF has 'authenticity' to do with music FFS?! If this question has been set by your 'educational' establishment I will not be able to sleep tonight for anger and disillusion with our educational establishment. What a ridiculous f***ing question. [/quote] OK, so maybe I am wrong about this and maybe it's questioning the reflection of the 'self', or otherwise, through popular music, rather than exploitation of the masses through musical hymns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steverickwood Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 With regard to writing for university, its best to consider opinions of cultural writings (such as the aforementioned Frith et al) and cite them as references as opposed to someone with an opinion such as 'Jedward are crap' approach. It is subjective, as are many creative subjects but some conclusions or thoughts can be considered with research and ultimately, if you can back it up its worth presenting. Someone highlighted some older blues references regarding Zeps authenticity and that makes sense. consider the term 'authenticity' and explore how your subject relates. And stay in touch with your lecturers and get their thoughts on your work - thats what they are there for:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1332198392' post='1584842'] As has already been pointed out, 'authenticity' is going to be a contested concept. If one were considering the 'authenticity' of Led Zeppelin, it might be worth examining the sequence: Muddy Waters, You Need Love (credited: Willie Dixon) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM8_HuQ0b34[/media] The Small Faces, You Need Loving (credited: Ronnie Lane, Steve Marriot) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpnF62TNYoM[/media] [/quote] Actually, you could say that Led Zep were authentically following in the tradition of their blues forebearers by stealing earlier songs and making them their own! I mean, who wrote 'Dust My Broom', Elmore James or Robert Johnson?? Answer, neither - Johnson adapted the song from some earlier bluesman (and who's to say that that guy didn't get it from someone else) and adapted it just as Elmore James adapted RJ's version! This has always happened throughout the history of music..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1332200273' post='1584870'] Actually, you could say that Led Zep were authentically following in the tradition of their blues forebearers by stealing earlier songs and making them their own! I mean, who wrote 'Dust My Broom', Elmore James or Robert Johnson?? Answer, neither - Johnson adapted the song from some earlier bluesman (and who's to say that that guy didn't get it from someone else) and adapted it just as Elmore James adapted RJ's version! This has always happened throughout the history of music..... [/quote] I have a feeling the assignment is based on THIS definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticity_(philosophy) In which case I think it is far too wide a question. Probably more interesting to get into specifics like is Guy Chambers' songwriting 'authentic'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1332173411' post='1584274'] I think it is a case of manufactured over organic. If the impetus comes from the creativity of individuals who are in the bands, then there is a level of integrity that is missing when the 'band' are the front for a corporate hit making machine. [/quote] Back on topic - I would agree with Bilbo..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332200632' post='1584877'] I have a feeling the assignment is based on THIS definition [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authenticity_(philosophy"]http://en.wikipedia....ity_(philosophy[/url]) In which case I think it is far too wide a question. Probably more interesting to get into specifics like is Guy Chambers' songwriting 'authentic'? [/quote] Much as I personally don't like the heavily manufactured modern day Opportunity Knocks stuff, this type of arguement can quickly fall apart and become meaningless. Who are we to say that Guy Chambers' songwriting isn't 'authentic'! He wrote good pop songs that connected to a huge cross-section of the public, who bought them without being told to by Simon Cowell! Surely that makes them authentic pop(ular) songs? Edited March 19, 2012 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1332201037' post='1584883'] Much as I personally don't like the heavily manufactured modern day Opportunity Knocks stuff, this type of arguement can quickly become meaningless. Who are we to say that Guy Chambers' songwriting isn't 'authentic' for god's sake! [/quote] Well quite. But the object is not determinism, but self examination. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) Tough one to answer really. To answer very basically Id have to say that pop music becomes credible when it is well received by the general public and is as a result a commercial success. Regarding authenticity I reckon that if a song or more usually artist has a unique feature then it or they are to some degree authentic. The problem is that once an authentic idea is seen as a commercial success it is replicated to death therefore rendering it mainstream. Personally, and this is probably not what you are looking for, I reckon there has been an increase in the number of credible vocalists in pop music since it was realised that talented singers could actually shift units, thankfully bringing an end to drivel from the likes of Spears and Westlife. Edited March 19, 2012 by Mog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 [quote name='silddx' timestamp='1332201112' post='1584885'] Well quite. But the object is not determinism, but self examination. I think. [/quote] Which just goes to show that the academic study of recent popular music can easily become faintly ridiculous and a bit pointless IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1332200273' post='1584870'] Actually, you could say that Led Zep were authentically following in the tradition of their blues forebearers by stealing earlier songs and making them their own! I mean, who wrote 'Dust My Broom', Elmore James or Robert Johnson?? Answer, neither - Johnson adapted the song from some earlier bluesman (and who's to say that that guy didn't get it from someone else) and adapted it just as Elmore James adapted RJ's version! This has always happened throughout the history of music..... [/quote] Yes, I'd say that's right, though Plant and Page did have to pay Willie Dixon in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1332198404' post='1584843'] Led Zeppelin, Whole Lotta Love (credited Robert Plant, Jimmy Page)[/quote] There was a lot of that though... does plagiarism make you inauthentic? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc[/media] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auDv6cf2PBM[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY-xpa9GWuo[/media] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0OYZm4RhFE[/media] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1332201677' post='1584896'] There was a lot of that though... does plagiarism make you inauthentic? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc[/media] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auDv6cf2PBM[/media] [/quote] No, I don't think it necessarily does make someone inauthentic but it ought to form part of the debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Just scratching the surface: How Many More Times, Trampled Underfoot, In My Time of Dying, etc, etc Still for my money, the best rock band of them all........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [indent=1]I don't think that plagiarism necessarily stops a band from being authentic - it's happened throughout the ages in all musical traditions![/indent] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='peteb' timestamp='1332202242' post='1584906'] [indent=1]I don't think that plagiarism necessarily stops a band from being authentic - it's happened throughout the ages in all musical traditions![/indent] [/quote] It certainly did happen through the ages and still does and indeed should, although I think 'plagiarism' is sometimes too strong a word for it. Originality, and authenticity in that sense, is extremely rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1332197858' post='1584830'] You could do a lot worse than finding a copy of 'On Jazz' by Theodore Adorno - all of his arguments against perceived authenticity (or pseudo-individualisation, as he called it) ring true in today's musical market place. [/quote] And then read Theadore Adorno Meets The Cadillacs to put it into some perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1332172907' post='1584264'] is any music authentic??????? [/quote] Isn't all music authentic?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstriper Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Saw this and thought of this thread: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMhxiz_u6_M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMhxiz_u6_M[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethfriend Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 All music is authentic just some of it's a bag of sh*te. Authentically sh*te mind you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1332203457' post='1584921'] And then read Theadore Adorno Meets The Cadillacs to put it into some perspective. [/quote] Agreed, Adorno can get a bit single-minded... I probably only think that way as a consequence of Capitalist indoctrination though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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