New Upright Bass - First time I've bought one.. some help advice?!

[attackbass]

So, the piece of crap upright I had needs a new bridge and new strings and so thought instread of throwing money at this bass it'd be better to buy a decent bass.

I've done some research and I've thought about getting something pretty decent that will see me through for a good few years.... I'd quite like a carved solid bass that isn't that 'schoo' orchestra' orange colour.

As far as I can tell there isn't a great deal of choice for buying new or used in the UK - I'm quite happy to buy a secondhand instrument, infact that might be preferable.

New I've found an Archer, the Zellar and the Stentor Student ii and Conservertoire(?) Are there any other brands out there I should look out for both new and used?

Are the Thomann basses any good - they seem to be mostly laminated.

Are there any obvious things I should look for when buying a used upright?

I should also add that i'll be using the bass for mainly pizz jazz but will use a bow too.

Any help/advice would be appreciated. I have a deep knowledge about electric bass but lost when it comes to these beasts!

Thanks

[jakenewmanbass]

what's your budget?

[attackbass]

Around £1000 = bit above bit below

[Bilbo]

I was in exactly the same place as you and went for this:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/93958-i-did-it-now-with-photos/page__hl__gedo+musik__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/93958-i-did-it-now-with-photos/page__hl__gedo+musik__fromsearch__1[/url]

You can hear it on my Soundcloud paghe (see link in my signature). I cannot compare it to others as I haven't tried them all but it got me gigging. I can say no more than that.

[TheRev]

The Stentor Student 2 and the Thomann 22 bass are both decent instruments for the money. Both are hybrids - solid tops with laminate back and sides.

Edited December 7, 2011 by TheRev

[attackbass]

what are differences and benefits between laminated, solid and hybrids?

[marvin spangles]

In general terms hybrids have a more complex tone than ply/laminates and fully carved are usually better again. Though you can get cheap badly set up carved basses that will sound inferior to a well set up quality ply. Ply's tend to be robust and as they are cheaper than quality carved basses you will not feel too bad about hogging them in and out of pubs and clubs and vans etc... The best value imho is a good quality hybrid. This should produce a good usable sound arco as well as pizz. Tom Barret in Galway does a range of Shen basses from plys through hybrids and fully carved. There might be something there to fit your budget. You could get a nice little holiday in the West of Ireland while you try out the basses. good luck

[attackbass]

Thanks for the replies. Just looked up the Shen basses and they are the best looking basses I've seen and he seems to know what he is doing. It's becoming more apparent to me that a bass needs to be well set up to optimise it's potential. Unfortunetly I don't have the budget to travel to Ireland for a Holiday... I haven't been on Holiday for 10 years and I don't include touring in that!!

Do you think it'd be worth speaking to Tom Barret and would he be willing to ship a bass to the UK. I'd feel more comfortable buying from somewhere like that than say thomann where I've heard their set ups are very basic...

[marvin spangles]

Hi attackbass
I if you do a search on Thomann basses you will find that there are some pros that have had good experiences with the Thomann basses on this forum. The price certainly is not to be beaten. Is there a luthier near where you live?
Re Tom Barrett shipping to the Uk I'd imagine that he would . However shipping will be an additional cost. I'll pm you with his tel number.

[PTB]

I bought both my DB's second hand from Peter Tyler. He's based off J7 of the M4. He was very patient in helping me choose and gave me loads of good advice when I was starting out. His website is limited but he will e mail you his current stock list. He offers a trial period with his basses which is rare these days.

[thisnameistaken]

I'm in a similar position - I've been looking for a carved bass for the last 6 months but haven't found anything I'd like that isn't way over my budget. It seems there's ply basses, and then there's £3-6000 antiques. I'm not a professional player I can't justify spending that much.

I'd also prefer a used bass because I'm going to be playing it in the street and I don't want to be the person who takes the finish off the edges, I want that to have been done already.

[Clarky]

[quote name='marvin spangles' timestamp='1323305820' post='1461965']
Hi attackbass
I if you do a search on Thomann basses you will find that there are some pros that have had good experiences with the Thomann basses on this forum.[/quote]

BC'er and pro DB player Gareth Hughes is very happy with his Thomann bass. If you drop him a PM I am sure he will be happy to point you in the direction of the model he has, which cost well under £1000

[fatback]

Regarding your budget, it's worth keeping in mind that you might need to spend a fair bit more than the cost of the bass, even if you buy new. Setup £150-200 (unless the shop include that), pickup £60-100, preamp another £80+, maybe different strings £100, and a bow £100.

And some kind of relationship counseling.

It was the extras that made me look at second hand, along with the fact of the wood maybe being more settled and stable etc. The cash saved covered the bits and bobs.

Edited December 8, 2011 by fatback

[sarah thomas]

As you're in south wales, if you can get over to the Cardiff area, you're welcome to try out my Boosey & Hawkes Artia - here's the original thread: http://basschat.co.uk/topic/148804-artia-boosey-and-hawkes-import-double-bass-l1000-sold/ Just send a pm. It'll give you an idea of the second hand market.

I'll be debuting on Monday at The Gate Arts Centre in Cardiff, starting around 7pm, free entry as it's an end of term thing. All welcome and you could try it out there as well. Most of the set I'll be doing on my little Ashbory to save the old wrist.

[sarah thomas]

And +1 to Pete Tyler. He was very helpful in my purchase.

[Clarky]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1323336571' post='1462065']
BC'er and pro DB player Gareth Hughes is very happy with his Thomann bass. If you drop him a PM I am sure he will be happy to point you in the direction of the model he has, which cost well under £1000
[/quote]

I found the post Gareth wrote about the Thomann bass - see #3 in this thread [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/160774-wanted-affordable-34-double-bass/page__p__1444202#entry1444202"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/160774-wanted-affordable-34-double-bass/page__p__1444202#entry1444202[/url]

[Gareth Hughes]

Hey All - here's the response I gave to attackbass for any who are interested. My disclaimer is that I may well be wrong about everything, but it works for me
[color=#232323]
Hey Will - [/color]
[color=#232323]
Good to hear from you. I've had a few inquiries about the Thomann basses and I'm happy to help. Old Horse Murphy was asking the very same thing a few weeks ago, so here is most of my reply to him. Hope you don't mind the cut&paste approach.[/color]
[color=#232323]
I love these basses, and I don't say that lightly. Mine is the Thomann 22 model, which is really a bass made by the Hora company in Reghin, Romania and then relabelled by Thomann. Nothing dodgy there, it's a normal practice in the orchestral world - much like Lakland or Fender, etc having an Asian factory make Lakland or Fender instruments. The Thomann 22 has a carved top with laminated sides and back.[/color]
[color=#232323]
The bass my one replaced was a £3500, fully carved model made for Ken Smith (of the electric bass fame - he's an uber-upright geek). He had several models made to his specs, so I took a punt on one. Great bass to play and had a gorgeous tone, but it was a bugger to amplify. Feedback city. The Thomann bass has about 90% of the Ken Smith in terms of tone but is SO much easier to gig with in terms of feedback. One of their models with a laminated top might be even better without too much sacrifice in tone. Given that I gig more than I record, this was a big issue for me so I split the difference and went with the hybrid.[/color]
[color=#232323]
A few big plus's with the Thomann's - mine shipped with the soundpost still in place. I don't know if it's glued or pegged in or if it was just pressure and the box hadn't taken a knock, but either way, it meant that when it arrived all I had to do was string her up and I was good to go. I was literally out gigging with it within days. [/color]
[color=#232323]
Dealing with Thomann is great. You place the order online but then if you want you can call up someone directly in the relevant department who are great to deal with. And usually with flawless English too.[/color]
[color=#232323]
I didn't have to spend any extras money once the bass arrived because the other big plus is that you can specify what height you want the strings set at - you can be specific with measurements or tell them it's for jazz/orchestra/bluegrass, etc. That's saving you the expense and time of going to a luthier. So since I've had mine it hasn't once been to a luthier and I've used it on countless gigs and recorded a few albums with it.[/color]
[color=#232323]
You will have to spend extra on pickups if you plan on using it live - and a good case is worth investing in.[/color]
[color=#232323]
A good all rounder pickup is the K&K Bass Max - sold by Bob Gollihur: http://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/1265-KANDK_SOUND_BASS_MAX_UPRIGHT_BASS_PICKUP_TRANSDUCER.html[/color]
[color=#232323]
Bob's site is also a great wealth of information about uprights and amplifying them. One thing to note tho - Bob recommends using a preamp with most pickups, which is a good idea BUT if you have any BOSS pedals, like a tuner, they have a good input impedance for most pickups. (This is another issue so I'll leave that for now. Ask me if you want more details - don't want to bog you down with too much geekness!!!)[/color]
[color=#232323]
It might seem expensive but a good case can pay for itself by protecting the bass properly and saving you from needing repeat repairs. The bridge on an upright can be knocked out of place easily, so a good case with leather padded 'bumpers' on the outside can save the day. Probably worth buying it at the same time from Thomann as you'll save on the shipping charges. The bass will ship just fine without it tho. Here's what I'd recommend: http://www.thomann.de/gb/concord_pv502_kontrabasstasche_3_4.htm[/color]
[color=#232323]
Whatever one you go for make sure it's a 3/4 size one - Thomann offers cases for all sizes, from 1/8 to 4/4 but they use the same stock photo so it can be misleading. Oh, and you might be tempted to go for a black case but there's a good logic in getting a brightly coloured one - most folks are seemingly blind when it comes to the upright and just walk right into it as you're trying to load into a gig - and they also seem to think that it's made of steel and can take any bangs that come it's way. I've a light tanned coloured case that sticks out a mile away - which is exactly what I want to help clear a path to the stage!![/color]
[color=#232323]
Another thing - you might already know this anyway, but don't be confused or put of by the term '3/4 size' for upright basses - it's the standard size. 99.9% of all upright basses in the world are 3/4 sizes, and even if you've hands like Stanley Clarke, you'll still want a 3/4 (which is what he plays too!!)[/color]
[color=#232323]
One thing I did change from stock was the strings. I don't know what it ships with but they're not bad strings - just a bit too high tension for me. Still, they were fine to get out gigging with. I changed to a set of Velvet Blues and they seem to work really well. Maybe it's because it's a new bass, but I felt that the synthetic gut strings helped soften the 'new' sound better than steel strings.[/color]
[color=#232323]
Another thing to note is that it can take several weeks for an upright to be shipped by Thomann. Even if it's in stock, it'll go into a queue for their string workshop, which can either be quick or slow depending on what else is going through there at the time, and then it seems that the courier service on large items is a lot slower than on smaller ones. Not a huge deal, but just to be aware that if you order on a Monday you won't be getting it on a Friday from them.[/color]

[thisnameistaken]

After 2 years of playing my ply 3/4 I was thinking of getting a carved or hybrid 4/4 bass, bigger mostly for more acoustic volume. I guess if I can still span a tone at half position then I might as well have a 4/4, no?

Actually Gareth, would you say your bass is loud?

[Gareth Hughes]

Yep, my bass is well loud - or so others say, and this leads to an interesting point: Given the physics of sounds waves, bass waves being longer and all that, I found that there were times when I could barely hear myself above a strongly strummer acoustic guitar, only to find out they were playing loudly to get over my volume.

One thing that helps this (acoustically) is using a Rabbath style bent endpin, which tilts the body, pointing the f-holes upwards and generally making it easier to hear what you're playing. Playing with an amp - I'm a strong advocate of getting your speaker as close to your head as possible. Feedback reasons aside, I just find it easier to hear an amp if it isn't pointing at my knees. Go figure

I do like the Rabbath pin, and it's a relatively cheap way to help hear yourself. Also a bonus for getting around the neck more comfortably, but that's another issue.

Another thing to consider tho is that one man's 4/4 is another's 7/8, and a 3/4 can also be a large 5/8. Kinda like buying two pairs of 34" jeans from different makers only to find that one makes you feel good and the other makes you feel like 'Who ate all the pies?' So, just like with jeans - try before you buy.

[thisnameistaken]

Cheers Gareth, all good advice, and some stuff I hadn't considered.

[fatback]

Great advice from Gareth there.

On the subject of 4/4 though, I've never handled one, but if it's much bigger and/or heavier than the usual hybrid 3/4 I'd think twice. I was surprised by how much heavier my bass was than an all ply, presumably because of the solid top). And when it comes to humping the thing down the road from a parking space and into a crowded club by the front door through the queue of weaving drunks, the idea of an even bigger bass is pretty scary.

Its at those times that playing the mandolin gets serious thought.

[51m0n]

Plux has an Archer 3/4 with a decent set of Thmoastiks on it, it sounds superb, great big warm and punchy tone, all the bass cognicenti who have heard it were shocked at the price given the tone. Its also really loud for a db.

Price all in (ie bass, setup & strings) was around 1200, recently got a second hand Bassmax pup for it (for jazz stuff) and its been brilliant, very true to the actual bass given that it is a piezo pup.

[Gareth Hughes]

And to add further beans to the GAS - here's a track I recorded using a £300, all laminate, Thomann bass with a rosewood (I think) fingerboard. This bass had no right to sound as good as it did. I'd sold my Ken Smith and was still waiting on my Thomann to arrive when this session came in, so borrowed this from a great drummer here, David Lyttle. He had the bass set-up by Thomas Barrett in Galway who installed a Realist pickup, lowered the action, replaced the tailpiece (I think) and strung it with Velvet Anima's. All in the final price came to about £1000. To me it's a great testament to the value of a good luthier and a good set-up.

The producer on this session was Ken Thomas. He'd just finished the last Yann Tiersen album (he of 'Amelie' soundtrack fame), as well as having produced the early Sigur Ros albums, and recently mixed the last Moby record. Point being - he be a man with great ears and was well happy with the sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWViYvBBrjo&hd=1

[marvin spangles]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1323435043' post='1463319']
After 2 years of playing my ply 3/4 I was thinking of getting a carved or hybrid 4/4 bass, bigger mostly for more acoustic volume. I guess if I can still span a tone at half position then I might as well have a 4/4, no
[/quote]
Bear in mind that most of the acoustic volume comes from technique as well. I have a 34 and what might be described as a 7/8. The 3/4 pizz sound is way louder. The other bass is fully carved too. There are so many variables. Get a bass you like playing and make it work for you.
Recently I went for a classical lesson with Michael Wolfe . I thought I got a good sound out of my bass (bowed) till I heard him cause the room to shake. But then he could probably get a huge sound out of nearly any reasonably well set up bass.

[marvin spangles]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' timestamp='1323443594' post='1463497']. Point being - he be a man with great ears and was well happy with the sound.

[/quote]
A great sound indeed Gareth. Tom does a good set up. Just curious ... did you mic the bass acoustically or take a feed from the pick up.

Edited December 9, 2011 by marvin spangles