Key Change Hell!

[algmusic]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1321287254' post='1437333']
Hm, are you comparing like with like? Same make of bass guitar, same pickups, internal electronics, string type/quality, etc.? My impression is that, all other things being equal, a 5-stringer might sound marginally less bright because its pickups need to be better suited to detecting lower frequencies than those on a 4-stringer, but that's just about it. If you use any effects, they should make light work of correcting that problem.
[/quote]

On a like for like on the 5 vs 4 I've had the two Rays and also on another occasion two Fender J's... if you get the exact same and you liked the 4, the 5 won't sound the same on the same fours strings.. I don't even think it's a brightness thing.. Could be the width of the neck and the size.. as I guess that would effect it and the way the strings vibrate off the bridge and the rest of the body and other strings.. I like the purpose of 5's but the 4's seem make me smile... it's funny, as I've used 5 for years and went back to mainly 4's now.




[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1321287846' post='1437346']
It's true which is i think subconciously (one of the reasons) why i ditched my 5 string basses. An open E on a 4 string sounds way better than a fretted E on the the B string of a 5. I know someones gonna say "Yes but what about Eb?" Well what about it. There are a shed load of tunes in Eb that sound absolutely great played on a 4 string. Whats the problem?

Really its not an issue transposing songs on a bass. I think its easier to do on bass than a lot of other instruments.
[/quote]

Also drop D sounds different (better) than playing the lower notes on a 5 IMHO

Edited November 14, 2011 by algmusic

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1321209032' post='1436515']
"I'd rather go BEAD if really necessary."

Whaaat-everrrr...
[/quote]
What?

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' timestamp='1321208119' post='1436496']
... I tend to stay away from open strings as much as possible as I prefer to fret the note which gives me more control over it.
[/quote]
Foam.

[discreet]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1321288350' post='1437355']
Foam.
[/quote]

There's no need to get angry about it!

[algmusic]

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' timestamp='1321208119' post='1436496']
I tend to stay away from open strings as much as possible as I prefer to fret the note which gives me more control over it.
[/quote]

The only problem in doing that is that have just taken 5 notes off your 5 string bass ??? I'm not having ago, I would recommend practising that you make open strings sound more controlled. It took me a while, but was worth it. It means you can get around your bass even easier

Edited November 14, 2011 by algmusic

[EssentialTension]

Open strings make great passing notes too

[Silvia Bluejay]

Algmusic - maybe. Width of neck another possible reason. And yes, drop D on a 4 sounds different from low D on a 5, but the latter is waay better IMO! Different taste (and makes of bass) I guess.

EssentialTension, I would miss my G-string if I did that
(seriously, also - it's handier for high notes than running up the neck).

[algmusic]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1321293026' post='1437433']

EssentialTension, I would miss my G-string if I did that
(seriously, also - it's handier for high notes than running up the neck).
[/quote]

I did a gig on drums when a friend of mine on bass did the whole BEAD thing... it worked well.. I can see the appeal.. I'd need ANOTHER bass to try that though.. string spacing is another issue with a 5, but some like the closer spacing for a 5 works better, as if you get wider spacing the have a huge neck...

I guess in an ideal world I'd have all these options... hhmm GAS

[Silvia Bluejay]

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1321372912' post='1438373']I guess in an ideal world I'd have all these options... hhmm GAS
[/quote]

Heh...

I have tiny hands and fingers (yes, I know, not quite the correct physique du role for a bassist - tough, I guess). That means the spacing of a 5 helps (although the neck width doesn't).

In general, it's excellent to see how very individual each of us is regarding sound, setup, tuning taste and just about everything else. There's lots to learn from each other's posts, experience, suggestions, idiosyncracies and even betes noires*

* Apologies to French speaking folks, my usual Alt+0234 method is not producing an e circumflex here.

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1321284849' post='1437313']
As a nip playing in church, I got used to playing the same song in almost every key based on who was singing that night or if they felt they reach the key I would get told the song is in G then they would tell me during the song to transpose to B.. I'm so grateful for those days now as transposing is easy to me.. I understand the arguement that some notes may not sound better.. but i'm pretty sure if you hired Nathan East he won't say 'why are we not playing it in the original key'[/quote]
I don't buy the "it will sound just as good in any key" line. There are some songs that just shouldn't be buggered about with. Many a band have I heard murder some decent covers by executing them in a wholly inappropriate key.

I had a five string once and although navigation of the fretboard became less of a problem after some homework, I was never able to fully adapt my slapping style to cater for the narrower spacings and extra fretboard width.

I came to the conclusion that if and when I was able to do everything that had ever been done on a four string I would re-consider. I think I've got a long wait ahead of me!

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1321374107' post='1438396']
* Apologies to French speaking folks, my usual Alt+0234 method is not producing an e circumflex here.
[/quote]

ê



I'd forgotten about that stuff, but it appears if you do ALT+0234 [b]in notepad[/b] then copy and paste in here, it works.

[BigBeatNut]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1321388490' post='1438656']
I had a five string once and although navigation of the fretboard became less of a problem after some homework, I was never able to fully adapt my slapping style to cater for the narrower spacings and extra fretboard width.
[/quote]

Shoulda got a 5 with 'proper' string spacing e.g. Lakland at 19mm (bridge) versus MM (17mm I think ?). Won't help with the 'extra width' thing though.

(if that's not going even further off-topic)

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BigBeatNut' timestamp='1321393333' post='1438712']
Shoulda got a 5 with 'proper' string spacing e.g. Lakland at 19mm (bridge) versus MM (17mm I think ?). Won't help with the 'extra width' thing though.

(if that's not going even further off-topic)
[/quote]
I had a G&L with 17mm, I wasn't happy.

[waynepunkdude]

Sorted

[algmusic]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1321388490' post='1438656']
I don't buy the "it will sound just as good in any key" line. There are some songs that just shouldn't be buggered about with. Many a band have I heard murder some decent covers by executing them in a wholly inappropriate key.

I had a five string once and although navigation of the fretboard became less of a problem after some homework, I was never able to fully adapt my slapping style to cater for the narrower spacings and extra fretboard width.

I came to the conclusion that if and when I was able to do everything that had ever been done on a four string I would re-consider. I think I've got a long wait ahead of me!
[/quote]

A fair comment, but I would bet money that 99% of songs written are governed by what key the singer wishes to sing. The other 1% was when the writer was a guitarist or bassist who sung. It's all about the range of the singer. I think people forget the musicians are not at the forefront of the songs. it's the singer and the melody. I also think playing in a different key has a lot to do with how good the player is to execute the song, but it may have something to play in it.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1321397681' post='1438793']
A fair comment, but I would bet money that 99% of songs written are governed by what key the singer wishes to sing. ...
[/quote]
That may well be the case and it's also the case that the massive majority of those songs were recorded with a 4-string bass tuned EADG.

[algmusic]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1321398096' post='1438797']
That may well be the case and it's also the case that the massive majority of those songs were recorded with a 4-string bass tuned EADG.
[/quote]

yep.. as a preferred 4 string player, I couldn't agree more

It's good to be flexible and see this key changes as musical opportunities to improve ones playing rather than then becoming hindrances..

[BottomE]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1321398096' post='1438797']
That may well be the case and it's also the case that the massive majority of those songs were recorded with a 4-string bass tuned EADG.
[/quote]

I said the same thing earlier in the thread. Most of the memorable bass lines were written on 4 string basses. Key is determined by vocalists and rightly so but some songs sound wrong if not played in the right key (Good Times in Eb, for example) - my suggestion would be to choose a song that does sound ok in a transposed key or choose songs in a key that suits your singer. A 5 string bass is not going to make Good Times sound ok in Eb no matter what you do.

Key change in itself is not a bad thing and keeps you on your toes. I do find that lots of vocalists don't know which key they like. We did a gig with a "celebrity" recently who wanted to sing a classic jazz standard. I asked her which key she'd like to do the song in and she said she didn't know. It's not the first time its happened.

[EssentialTension]

Some of this applies to tempo changes too.

Change the tempo and you might need to change the bassline.

[discreet]

[size=4][quote name='bluejay' timestamp='1321374107' post='1438396']
Apologies to French speaking folks, my usual Alt+0234 method is not producing an e circumflex here.[/size]
[/quote]

Here, you can borrow some of mine.

ê ê ê ê ê ê ê

Let me know if you want any more.

Edited November 16, 2011 by discreet

[Silvia Bluejay]

Thank you BigBeatNut and Discreet - will keep your advice and those '[size=4]ê's handy for next time I have to tackle a language I don't speak in a post [/size] xx

[peteb]

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1321397681' post='1438793']
A fair comment, but I would bet money that 99% of songs written are governed by what key the singer wishes to sing. The other 1% was when the writer was a guitarist or bassist who sung. It's all about the range of the singer. I think people forget the musicians are not at the forefront of the songs. it's the singer and the melody. I also think playing in a different key has a lot to do with how good the player is to execute the song, but it may have something to play in it.
[/quote]
I do not think that it is necessarily correct, especially in rock songs that are written around a guitar part that is dependant on open strings

For example, try playing Whole Lotta Rosie in 'C'

[BottomE]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1321472401' post='1439677']
I do not think that it is necessarily correct, especially in rock songs that are written around a guitar part that is dependant on open strings

For example, try playing Whole Lotta Rosie in 'C'
[/quote]
Not being from the guitar relm don't they have things called Kapos or Capos? Couldn't they stick one on the 5th fret and pretend the rest of the guitar don't exist?

[deepbass5]

I would agree with [b]algmusic[/b] and [b]Bottom E[/b]. Vocalist tend to determine the key and a lot of songs never sound the same when changed. I believe a 5 string is a good all round tool for most musical styles. It is a different instrument to a 4 string bass and should be considered as such. Also agree the extra string can detract from the sound of the E and other strings, probably vibrate differently too. I Like 19mm spacing to feel like a 4 under my fingers, but it isn't as easy to slap. These compromises require a better made instrument to minimalise these negative points, but the flexibility is worth it for the key options discussed and economy of movement.

[peteb]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1321478653' post='1439778']
Not being from the guitar relm don't they have things called Kapos or Capos? Couldn't they stick one on the 5th fret and pretend the rest of the guitar don't exist?
[/quote]
No...!