Pre Amps and Power Amps

[nottswarwick]

Some of you will be aware that I am in the middle of my quest for the perfect (for me) gigging rig....

Well, another option will be a pre/power set up. I have down this before using a BDDI into a QSC RMX 2450, into my old Markbass 410. It met with slightly limited success, possibly because of something I do not quite understand - ideal (or less than ideal) matching (impedance related) of preamp (BDDI) and power amp (I think...).

Anyway, the current cab in question is the BF compact - although this could still be exchanged (still within my one month trial period, just - final trials this weekend).

So, what I am trying to establish is what good preamp options are there out there? I am aware of:

Sansamp stuff - BDDI, Para Driver, and perhaps of most interest, the RBI.
Avalon U5
Ebs Micro Bass
Radial Bassbone.

In fact, I actually already have a radial JDI passive DI box. No tone controls obviously, but might do the job.

I [i]think[/i] I might be after something clean and clear and a transparent - basically a true representation of my bass. I can then add grit from a pedal if necessary. So something like the Avalon could be the ticket (although the lack of EQ - I know it has some presets - worries me a little for tweaking on the gig, as it were).

And then there is the question of the power amp. From past experience of PA work I like the QSC stuff. PLX for lightness would be good. But what about this impedance matching string - can someone explain it.

I know Alex (BF) uses such a set-up - perhaps you could elaborate?

Anyway, this is certainly of interest to me, and hopefully might be to others. There is info already on the board, but I could not find it all together...

Chris

[rmshaw37]

aup mate, i use a sansamp rbi and rpm through a power amp - and i'm not a million miles from nottingham if you wanted to try it?

i had this set up running a dual rig (not proper biamp) with gritty rbi through 210 and clean low rpm through 115 - sounded awesome!

now figured out how to hook them up together and mix the 2 sounds without colouring them - so i only need one DI (which sound engineers much prefer IME)

so yeah if you wanted to meet up then you can see what those 2 units sound like.

good luck on the expensive quest for tone lol

[chris_b]

Seems to me you've got too many options on the go at the same time. I'd just make one change at a time. Get comfortable with the cab first then upgrade the amp.

[nottswarwick]

you could be right Chris. Still, worth investigating theoretically.

[Happy Jack]

The JDI passive is a great little box (I recently got hold of one, and I love it) but it is NOT a replacement for a pre-amp IMHO.

The Radial Bassbone is a tone-[i][b]shaper [/b][/i]and very good at doing that, but it didn't impress when I tried to use one as a pre-amp. With the Level set to Max you get Unity gain, so to boost the signal you either use the Boost button (which rules out using it as an FX loop only) or you boost all three EQ controls. As a pre-amp it's not particularly intuitive.

IME the BDDI is far and away the best bet if you want flexibility and range. If you have a specific and limited sound in mind, then you'll always find someone who makes exactly what you need.

For a classic valve sound, for example, check out Dave Hall's stuff (DHA). The VT2 is a superb piece of kit.

[Happy Jack]

Oops, I nearly forgot - try the PJB Bass Buddy.

It's an excellent headphone amp + DI box + EQ box + pre-amp + 10W power amp.

Bloody expensive, but worth every penny.

Also sounds reasonably good with acoustic instruments, though not as good as the dedicated Fishman stuff.

[JTUK]

I'd go for a dedicated rack pre...something like a Demeter or Aguilar for me but they will not be cheap.

As much as I like the Tonehammer pedal, I think these ( pedals) are get-by's rather than a general solution.

I think this approach will only confuse the chain and lead to constant searching/swapping
Just my 2p

[Dood]

I'm just running out the door now, but I'll try to remember to post back here later on chap. I've done the head vs rack components thing to death so will be happy to give you my experiences from over the years. My secret weapon these days in a two channel pre, the Ampeg SVP-BSP. I foolishly sold my first one so was very pleased when a second one came up on BC. It has a clean channel and a dirty channel, but the two can be mixed together, similar to the MXR M80. The clean channel is a very simple Fender/Alembic/Vtype/Hartke LH passive tone stack path with a few extras, which means it is clean and pure. The dirty channel will do a mild grit all the way up to a reasonable facsimile of Hysteria by Muse in terms of distortion, thanks to it's cascaded gain design. I've upgraded the valve in it too and it sounds great recorded and is happy plugging in to a number of different devices such as power amps etc.

It's also a way of keeping things simple as it is a self contained unit with a number of connection options. I'm hoping the Hartke Kilo head will be able to do similar when it finally reaches our shores in September!

[Happy Jack]

Went looking for some info on the BSP and found this review:

[color="#8B0000"][i]There's some neat things about the BSP, but there are some things that aren't always desirable for a bassist.

Keep in mind, the dirty channel is made for Billy! It lacks any meaty low end when played alone. It's a very guitary shred tone, and get really wild if you're using a cab with a tweet on. I think he uses this to branch off into guitar cabs live if I recall.

However, for blending, it's actually really nice, you can retain all that meat and grunt you get from the clean channel and toss in as much fuzz into it as you want.

Keep in mind, the eq settings ARE NOT FLAT as you are used to. The middle 12 o'clock is not considered flat. I believe the manual or some other source I've seen actually notes what the flat locations are for each knob, and they are all different. So don't be surprised if you have what looks like a weird eq setup that actually sounds right for you.
[/i][/color]

Fair comment, Dood?

Edited August 14, 2011 by Happy Jack

[Prime_BASS]

A lot of EQ sections "flat" isn't optimally flat. To get optimum flat response from the OTB you hav to cut the treble and bass to off and mids all the way on. Any who. The BSP is by far one of the best all rounded dedicated pre-amp IMO Majority of the pedal "pre-amps" that say "can even be used as pre-amp to plug into a power amp" I find are lacking in the output, and find it hard or can't really match the same output by using a standard amp heads input through the onboard pre-amp.
I may have been doing something wrong.
You need to fid what you need from your rig and then find something that meets those requirements the best.

In regards to cabbage.
I had the compact a while ago and I changed to the midget because (at the time) I didn't need something that loud and I wanted the extra top end. I haven't tried a range that best does the clear and transparent aspect. I wouldn't worry about getting the sound right with the cab as you'll get out whatever goes in, so it's down to the sound you want/like from a bass, and then the head (or preamp/poweramps) ability to be as loud and as clear as possible. Again you should decide what you need most from a cab and then find what suits you best.

If you ever want to come and try the S12T and F1 you are more than welcome.

[Dood]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1339443' date='Aug 14 2011, 11:19 AM']Went looking for some info on the BSP and found this review:

[color="#8B0000"][i]There's some neat things about the BSP, but there are some things that aren't always desirable for a bassist.

Keep in mind, the dirty channel is made for Billy! It lacks any meaty low end when played alone. It's a very guitary shred tone, and get really wild if you're using a cab with a tweet on. I think he uses this to branch off into guitar cabs live if I recall.

However, for blending, it's actually really nice, you can retain all that meat and grunt you get from the clean channel and toss in as much fuzz into it as you want.

Keep in mind, the eq settings ARE NOT FLAT as you are used to. The middle 12 o'clock is not considered flat. I believe the manual or some other source I've seen actually notes what the flat locations are for each knob, and they are all different. So don't be surprised if you have what looks like a weird eq setup that actually sounds right for you.
[/i][/color]

Fair comment, Dood?[/quote]

I'll answer each in turn:

** There's some neat things about the BSP, but there are some things that aren't always desirable for a bassist.
Sure, I guess not everyone likes or needs distortion, fair comment.

** Keep in mind, the dirty channel is made for Billy! It lacks any meaty low end when played alone.
Yeah, I agree - the design is more of a guitar type distortion preamp / pedal and it is definitely better mixing both channels together by the flick of a switch. the individual clean and dirty channels can be adjusted separately still though, which is important.

** It's a very guitary shred tone, and get really wild if you're using a cab with a tweet on.
It *can* get very wild, but it will back off to a mild break up. I use it at the point that the distortion just starts sustaining then EQ all of the top out, so the clean bass and treble sings through.

** I think he uses this to branch off into guitar cabs live if I recall.
Ahhh, no - he runs to Bass amps into bass cabinets, but they are EQ very differently. (Along with compression)

** However, for blending, it's actually really nice, you can retain all that meat and grunt you get from the clean channel and toss in as much fuzz into it as you want.
Yes yes yes yes!! This is why I love it. I also use a TC Electronic G Major 2 for effects; but also the ability to change the channels on the BSP via a relay on the TC as well. I can save an effects routing and channel change on one button of my MIDI controller.

** Keep in mind, the eq settings ARE NOT FLAT as you are used to. The middle 12 o'clock is not considered flat. I believe the manual or some other source I've seen actually notes what the flat locations are for each knob, and they are all different. So don't be surprised if you have what looks like a weird eq setup that actually sounds right for you.
As I had said earlier, the clean preamp is a clone of the Fender Passive Tonestack and thus much the same as the Hartke, 'flat' will be more like 2-10-2 bass-mid-treble than all up at 12 0'clock which will be more akin to a smiley face pattern on a graphic equaliser. But as I say to everyone - you should be listening with your ears, not your eyes. - My mid controls on both the BSP and LH1000 are generally high, bass controls 5-6 and my trebles can be wound down a bit - I'm using Hartke 4.5XL cabinets and the have a naturally bright voice. The distortion (which opposes what many people seem to think about aluminium cones,) actually sounds really good through my cabinets!

I'm really happy I managed to bag another BSP - It's be great to see if the Hartke Kilo can do the same with ref to the distortion section on the BSP - but I'm unlikely to sell the little beast anyway!

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='dood' post='1341115' date='Aug 15 2011, 08:31 PM']...

** I think he uses this to branch off into guitar cabs live if I recall.
Ahhh, no - he runs to Bass amps into bass cabinets, but they are EQ very differently. (Along with compression)

...

I'm really happy I managed to bag another BSP - It's be great to see if the Hartke Kilo can do the same with ref to the distortion section on the BSP - but I'm unlikely to sell the little beast anyway![/quote]

Billys cab set up intreguies me! He used to run all 810s but with the Hartke gear he's used over the years he's used 115s for the P pickup and distortion and and 410s for the woofer pickup and the clean low end as he said it gives over all a more balanced tone and also the low bass sub clean area is more important so needs to move more air.

Aslo billy hasn't used compression (in any serious amount) since Holy Cow (which i believe features the Hartke LH amp on it!)

As he as decided to use less and less effects to get a truer, purer sound and he said to also make him a better bass player to have an untainted sound to practise with in rehersal and he mostly practises unplugged now

[End of fan-boy ism]

Don't worry Dood, i'll be a Dood fanboy before too long

[nottswarwick]

To get the best match of a preamp with a power amp, what do you have to look at? Is is the voltage of the output of the pre/input of the power amp, or the impedance of the respective inputs and outputs.

For example

PJB Bass Buddy states output voltage of 1.2V, and preamp output impedance of 20kohms
QSC PLX 3102 - input sensitivty 1.23Vrms, input impedance 20kohm bal, 10kohm unbal.

So which do we match up?

Cheers

Chris

[Mr. Foxen]

Voltage/voltage sensitivity is important to match, so the pre has enough juice to run the power amp, that is the probelm I have with my MAtamp Slave, not much has enough to push it.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='rmshaw37' post='1338491' date='Aug 13 2011, 10:07 AM'](not proper biamp)[/quote]

Just for the record, I disagree with this. Two preamps running two power amps (your power amp is stereo iirc, essentially two power amps in one module) into two cabs, sounds properly bi-amped to me.

Gk and ampeg do some preamps that I've heard good things about.

[Dood]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1353544' date='Aug 27 2011, 01:25 PM']Just for the record, I disagree with this. Two preamps running two power amps (your power amp is stereo iirc, essentially two power amps in one module) into two cabs, sounds properly bi-amped to me.

Gk and ampeg do some preamps that I've heard good things about.[/quote]


I can see where you are coming from if the name were taken literally 'two-amping' but it's a little more specific, meaning separate amplifiers power separate speakers to drive the high. low and mid frequencies respectively.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-amping"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-amping[/url]

[Jack]

If you want really clean and clear (and be sure you really do) then look at some studio channel strips. I really, really love the Presonus Eureka for 'my' sound but unfortunately I find it too clean for rock bands. Have a look at somewhere like KMR or Thomann and see what takes your fancy.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='1353445' date='Aug 27 2011, 11:24 AM']To get the best match of a preamp with a power amp, what do you have to look at? Is is the voltage of the output of the pre/input of the power amp, or the impedance of the respective inputs and outputs.

For example

PJB Bass Buddy states output voltage of 1.2V, and preamp output impedance of 20kohms
QSC PLX 3102 - input sensitivty 1.23Vrms, input impedance 20kohm bal, 10kohm unbal.

So which do we match up?

Cheers

Chris[/quote]

Hey Chris

See: [url="http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/preamp.shtml"]http://www.ovnilab.com/articles/preamp.shtml[/url]

Most Solid State power amps have standard input sensitivities, to work to a variety of balanced/unbalanced line level sources: mixers, and whatever. Tube/Valve power amps are known to have a bit of variance.

In your case, the variable is the preamp unit's capability to drive a power amp adequately. Not many floor units are designed to this, though some have the capacity to do so.