Mod_Machine Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Hi, Ive changed the neck (electrics, paint work, pickups, etc etc) on an old jedson to make it something else entirely.(photos going up on build thread soon) I played it last night for a few hours and have a real prob with longer term playing. The neck ive used is a short scale from an epiphone eb0. Its lovely to play BUT ive retained the large elephant ear tuning pegs and they weigh a ton. Look lovely, but weigh a ton. This is obviously resulting in neck dive which the old epiphone EB0 also suffered from. So other than replacing the tuning pegs for a lighter set (which i dont want to do based on purely on looks!) what else can i do? I was contemplating couter balancing the bass by adding some sort of weights to the other end of the bass which may increase the weight of the bass but ultimately make it more playable? Any advice about doing that and best way to achieve a nicer balance to save my fretting hand from substantial cramp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Only suggestions I can offer are to get a heavy duty bridge installed, oorrrrr you could attach some accessories to a chain and fix it to the strap button onthe bottom. It'll look cool and you could start a trend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I have screwed lumps of metal to the side of instruments, and hung bags of fishing weights off the back strap button. I currently have a small bag of metal plates which slot nicely inside the strap at the body end, it has worked well on neck diving acoustics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slipperydick Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Just a thought. Wouldnt a weight at the back end of the strap have a similar effect, by pulling the other end of the strap upwards ? Sounds too simple, so there must be a reason nobody else has mentioned it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 There's a guy on the Warwick forum that recommended tucking a 16oz hammer into your strap near the bottom of the bass. Not only does it sort the neck-dive out, he says it's also really handy when there's a nail sticking out on stage. Alternatively, could you get some light-weight tuning pegs in the same shape as your elephant ears? (If they were made of aluminium then they could look the same but be lighter). Or fits some lightweight pegs but keep the buttons - that wouldn't save as much weight but it might make enough of a difference. Then there's the moving-the-strap-button option. You can move the bottom button so that it's "nearer" the headstock - but "nearer" in a precise sense: you need to make sure that when you hold the bass at your preferred angle, the vertical line through the button is closer to the vertical line through the headstock. That usually means moving the button [i]towards[/i] the jack socket, rather than away from it. Or you can move the top strap button. I don't know the shape of your bass, but with many basses the top horn is not long enough. In that case you can just fix a new button on the back of the neck. If you do it around the fifth fret, then you'll still have access to all the important notes - frets 1-4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='mart' post='1312439' date='Jul 22 2011, 10:21 AM']Or you can move the top strap button. I don't know the shape of your bass, but with many basses the top horn is not long enough. In that case you can just fix a new button on the back of the neck. If you do it around the fifth fret, then you'll still have access to all the important notes - frets 1-4. [/quote] I have a neck with a screw hole in the back of it where somebody has clearly done just that. Makes me laugh every time my thumb goes over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod_Machine Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Mmmm - im thinking ill be giving the 'hole in the neck' approach a miss! Im really also not the kinda guy to have things hanging from the ens of the bass. I move alot when i play so a bag of weights attached to the end of the strap are likely to cause non insurable damage to a venue, or almost as bad, some pretty serious injuries. Already moved the strap pin down to being in the centre at the rear (rather than as previous where it was further up) and surely the bass will 'flip' when not being played if i move it down towards jack plug area? Bass is a telecaster guitar shape - in fact here it is.... [attachment=85300:short_scale_jedson.jpg] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 If Fender and Gibson can't figure it out what chance have you got? Tis a crime punishable by death (beheading would fix the dive). I fixed a mates thunderbird by simply moving the top button to the end of the heel. Failing that, get a decent bass. (all in good humour) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 There are three things you can do before having at start attaching weights to the body: 1. [url="http://store.hipshotproducts.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=5"]Hipshot make Ultralite versions of the clover key machine heads[/url] fit those. 2. Move the strap button at the neck end of the body to either the apex of the curve (it looks as though it's just below that at the moment) or the back of the neck pocket - which ever gets it closest to the 12th fret when the bass is held at your preferred playing angle. 3. Move the strap button at the other end of the body further up (away from the controls). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='BigRedX' post='1312562' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:51 AM']There are three things you can do before having at start attaching weights to the body: 1. [url="http://store.hipshotproducts.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=5"]Hipshot make Ultralite versions of the clover key machine heads[/url] fit those. 2. Move the strap button at the neck end of the body to either the apex of the curve (it looks as though it's just below that at the moment) or the back of the neck pocket - which ever gets it closest to the 12th fret when the bass is held at your preferred playing angle. 3. Move the strap button at the other end of the body further up (away from the controls).[/quote] 1.ultralites can only do so much. pm me if you want some though. 2.'s'wot i said. 3.no 2 should be enough. I can't believe people are spending hard cash on instruments that fit the image but play like sh*t, and actually end up hanging dumbells off the end just to make em sit up straight. Some image! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='BigRedX' post='1312562' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:51 AM']1. [url="http://store.hipshotproducts.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=5"]Hipshot make Ultralite versions of the clover key machine heads[/url] fit those.[/quote] This is by far the most effective solution IMO. You have about half a kilogram hanging off the end of your headstock at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Undead Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 The most obvious solution to me would be to move the strap button to counter the dive - an inch or two towards your shoulder should do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slipperydick Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='Mod_Machine' post='1312536' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:35 AM']Mmmm - im thinking ill be giving the 'hole in the neck' approach a miss! [b]Im really also not the kinda guy to have things hanging from the ens of the bass[/b]. I move alot when i play so a bag of weights attached to the end of the strap are likely to cause non insurable damage to a venue, or almost as bad, some pretty serious injuries. Already moved the strap pin down to being in the centre at the rear (rather than as previous where it was further up) and surely the bass will 'flip' when not being played if i move it down towards jack plug area? Bass is a telecaster guitar shape - in fact here it is.... [attachment=85300:short_scale_jedson.jpg][/quote] I was thinking of something more like a strip of metal 6mm thick sewn into the strap, or maybe a divers weight. Not something hanging off. Although with some of the venues we play, a hammer or a cosh might not be a bad idea. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Vader Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='Mod_Machine' post='1312536' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:35 AM']Already moved the strap pin down to being in the centre at the rear (rather than as previous where it was further up) and surely the bass will 'flip' when not being played if i move it down towards jack plug area?[/quote] I think this may have been your mistake, the original position being further up would move the centre of gravity towards the body end, and reduce neckdive. Also, my thin bag of metal fits between strap and body, doesn't go anywhere, particularly if you fit a sleeve thing to hold it in place even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 It seems to me that the best thing to do to would be not to let go of the neck while you are playing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='Mod_Machine' post='1312536' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:35 AM']Mmmm - im thinking ill be giving the 'hole in the neck' approach a miss! ...[/quote] So narrow-minded [quote name='Mod_Machine' post='1312536' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:35 AM']... Already moved the strap pin down to being in the centre at the rear (rather than as previous where it was further up) and surely the bass will 'flip' when not being played if i move it down towards jack plug area?[/quote] I suppose it might flip, but I wouldn't think it's very likely - your right arm will stop it, won't it? And you could put the strap button on the back of the bass. [quote name='lettsguitars' post='1312573' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:59 AM']1.ultralites can only do so much. pm me if you want some though. ...[/quote] That's my impression - based on the Hipshot specs, and the weight of my pegs, fitting ultralites would remove a weight equivalent to one tuning peg on my bass. So I did exactly that - I took a peg off, and saw how the balance changed. And, basically, it didn't much - it was still neck-diving badly. [quote name='lettsguitars' post='1312573' date='Jul 22 2011, 11:59 AM']... I can't believe people are spending hard cash on instruments that fit the image but play like sh*t, and actually end up hanging dumbells off the end just to make em sit up straight. Some image![/quote] Yeah, but 1) image is important and 2) sometimes it's not image - it's the sound of the bass. And some of us are prepared to put with up bad ergonomics for a good sound. Maybe that's not a choice everyone would make, but hey, we're all different! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mybass Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='Mod_Machine' post='1312392' date='Jul 22 2011, 09:41 AM']Hi, Ive changed the neck (electrics, paint work, pickups, etc etc) on an old jedson to make it something else entirely.(photos going up on build thread soon) I played it last night for a few hours and have a real prob with longer term playing. The neck ive used is a short scale from an epiphone eb0. Its lovely to play BUT ive retained the large elephant ear tuning pegs and they weigh a ton. Look lovely, but weigh a ton. This is obviously resulting in neck dive which the old epiphone EB0 also suffered from. So other than replacing the tuning pegs for a lighter set (which i dont want to do based on purely on looks!) what else can i do? I was contemplating couter balancing the bass by adding some sort of weights to the other end of the bass which may increase the weight of the bass but ultimately make it more playable? Any advice about doing that and best way to achieve a nicer balance to save my fretting hand from substantial cramp?[/quote] The top 'horn' of your bass comes to the 15th fret area. Fender 'style' basses come to the 12th fret area. This helps maintain balance of the instrument and for many players is a little easier to play the bass down the low end (F F* G) than modern balanced basses where the top horn only reaches to the 15th fret area. Have you tried the old acoustic folk strap idea that goes from the bridge end strap button and ties onto the headstock (or even move the strap button to the back of the headstock if this balance works). I seem to remember some years ago a company, probably American, bringing out an 'extension' top horn that was fixed somehow to the (back of) the bass and extended to the 12th fret area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='mart' post='1312675' date='Jul 22 2011, 01:06 PM']That's my impression - based on the Hipshot specs, and the weight of my pegs, fitting ultralites would remove a weight equivalent to one tuning peg on my bass. So I did exactly that - I took a peg off, and saw how the balance changed. And, basically, it didn't much - it was still neck-diving badly.[/quote] From memory (I weighed them but it's a while back), the Hipshots or equivalents weigh 200 grammes and a standard set of tuners weighs 450 - 500 grammes. So taking one tuning peg off wouldn't be indicative. It completely cured the neck dive on my Yamaha. Not a cheap option, but it also reduces the overall weight of your bass and certainly beats hanging a hammer on your strap. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='stevie' post='1312720' date='Jul 22 2011, 01:49 PM']From memory (I weighed them but it's a while back), the Hipshots or equivalents weigh 200 grammes and a standard set of tuners weighs 450 - 500 grammes. So taking one tuning peg off wouldn't be indicative. It completely cured the neck dive on my Yamaha. Not a cheap option, but it also reduces the overall weight of your bass and certainly beats hanging a hammer on your strap. :-)[/quote] It does depend a lot on what your current tuning pegs are. In my case the factory-fitted ones weigh about 57g each. Hipshot say their Ultralites are 52g, making for an immense saving of, ooh, 20g across the 4 pegs. However, some folk who have fitted Ultralites say they weigh less - around 42-44g. Based on that, a set of 4 might save me 60g, i.e., near as dammit, one tuner. I agree that if you could take 250g off your headstock it would make a lot of difference. I wish I could, but until someone shows me some tuning pegs that weigh absolutely nothing, I can't. I'm almost tempted by the helium balloon option.... And I totally agree that adding weights to your strap is undesirable - especially if you've already got a heavy bass. I passed the hammer suggestion on without any implied endorsement intended. [quote name='mybass' post='1312688' date='Jul 22 2011, 01:19 PM']... Have you tried the old acoustic folk strap idea that goes from the bridge end strap button and ties onto the headstock (or even move the strap button to the back of the headstock if this balance works). ...[/quote] I have to ask: Have [i]you[/i] tried that acoustic guitar trick? I have, and can confirm that if you try it with a solid-body instrument, then you'll find the body quickly sinks to the floor and you'll have the tuning pegs embedded in the side of your face if you're not careful! Personally I'd prefer a bit of neck-dive. However, you can modify this by rigging a strap that connects to both the top-horn strap-button [i]and[/i] the headstock. It's not a perfect solution, but I think it can be bearable. I've been told that it puts strain on the neck-body joint, but I'm not convinced since (to my simple mind) it is lifting the weight of the neck up, rather than letting gravity pull the neck weight down. (And since the acoustic-guitar trick must apply the same problem, or worse, to the joint, yet nobody complains about it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slipperydick Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='mart' post='1312968' date='Jul 22 2011, 04:51 PM']It does depend a lot on what your current tuning pegs are. In my case the factory-fitted ones weigh about 57g each. Hipshot say their Ultralites are 52g, making for an immense saving of, ooh, 20g across the 4 pegs. However, some folk who have fitted Ultralites say they weigh less - around 42-44g. Based on that, a set of 4 might save me 60g, i.e., near as dammit, one tuner. I agree that if you could take 250g off your headstock it would make a lot of difference. I wish I could, but until someone shows me some tuning pegs that weigh absolutely nothing, I can't. I'm almost tempted by the helium balloon option.... And I totally agree that adding weights to your strap is undesirable - especially if you've already got a heavy bass. I passed the hammer suggestion on without any implied endorsement intended. I have to ask: Have [i]you[/i] tried that acoustic guitar trick? I have, and can confirm that if you try it with a solid-body instrument, then you'll find the body quickly sinks to the floor and you'll have the tuning pegs embedded in the side of your face if you're not careful! Personally I'd prefer a bit of neck-dive. However, you can modify this by rigging a strap that connects to both the top-horn strap-button [i]and[/i] the headstock. It's not a perfect solution, but I think it can be bearable. I've been told that it puts strain on the neck-body joint, but I'm not convinced since (to my simple mind) it is lifting the weight of the neck up, rather than letting gravity pull the neck weight down. (And since the acoustic-guitar trick must apply the same problem, or worse, to the joint, yet nobody complains about it).[/quote] Didnt really early Fenders have a strap button on the back of the headstock anyway - or was that for something else ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='Slipperydick' post='1312974' date='Jul 22 2011, 04:59 PM']Didnt really early Fenders have a strap button on the back of the headstock anyway - or was that for something else ?[/quote] I believe that was so it would hang at an angle that was supposed to be more familiar to musicians used to playing an upright bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 [quote name='mart' post='1312968' date='Jul 22 2011, 04:51 PM']It does depend a lot on what your current tuning pegs are. In my case the factory-fitted ones weigh about 57g each. Hipshot say their Ultralites are 52g, making for an immense saving of, ooh, 20g across the 4 pegs. However, some folk who have fitted Ultralites say they weigh less - around 42-44g. Based on that, a set of 4 might save me 60g, i.e., near as dammit, one tuner.[/quote] Those tuners are unusually light to start with - so I get your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 But those are [i]African [/i]Elephant tuners (perhaps from Kenya, or Mozambique..?). Find a set of [i]Indian [/i]Elephant tuners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod_Machine Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Hi all, just got back in but hasn't everyone been busy! Read with interest many if the comments but need to clarify a couple of things. Firstly the bass is my back up bass to my 'proper' bass (all be it still short scale coz I just don't like long scale basses!) It was originally a 70s jedson bass that are unplayable in standard form due to a number of reasons (half scale with bridge fitted in wrong place at factory, neck a standard guitar neck with bass strings on, bad electrics, poor pickups, floating style roller bridge copy fitted directly to body!). The work I'm doing to it is so I have a better idea of what goes into a bass other than just setting intonation or tightening a truss rod. This is a cost effective and enjoyable approach rather than starting from scratch and also allows me try things without the risk of screwing up an expensive bass. Saying That I'm still keen to make this more playable! Also with regards to strap pin placement at the rear I can confirm that the further up the bass towards the shoulder it is moved the WORSE the neck dive becomes. There is a very good post somewhere on bass chat discussing the mathematics and science behind this, but ultimately the fact I've moved the strap pin down toward the jack socket and not returned it to it's original position is also an indication that in 'practice' the science behind that post is accurate. So, with that in mind, and the fact I'm not changing the way it looks in a noticable way or spending large sums of money for minimal weight savings by replacing the pegs (If I was going to do that I already have some ibanez jet king pegs sitting around) what else is there? Would creating a cavity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod_Machine Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 For example what about creating a cavity at the rear of the bass loaded with weights to weigh down that side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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