hhoward Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Hi guys A mixing question this time, i am hoping that you my fellow bassists might have ideas to help me. All my recording at this time is done on a Boss BR1600CD desk and i have 5 pairs of headphones all crap, just hifi ones what sounds good to me in the studio doesn't to others when they get my music, it is not clear or my voice too quiet or loud does anyone know of headphones that can help me mix properly in the studio that does not cost an arm or a leg that you can recommend? $500 headphones are beyond me at this time so i was wondering if any of you have headphones that you recommend for someone on a budget? i suppose in pounds no more than about 150 pounds or $200 in Aus thanx from a frustrated HowardH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuco Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 sennheiser hd280 are pretty good considering the price imo round about the £85 mark i believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 [quote name='Tuco' post='1139985' date='Feb 24 2011, 02:16 PM']sennheiser hd280 are pretty good considering the price imo round about the £85 mark i believe [/quote] +1 to them, I use them for practice as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 thanks tuco and paul, i will look them up regards HowardH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I just bought some KNK KNS8400 headphones, well worth a look at around £139 I think. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lettsguitars Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 reference monitors! headphones will never give a true reference when mixing. as all 'hi-fi' headphones have an eq curve built in. even a pair of crappy hi-fi speakers are a better reference than phones. phones are used mainly for identifying little details like clicks and pops that need attention. if you have no other option than hp, it's good to be aware of how the particular phones are affecting certain frequencies. it's a bugger really and if you're after a good mix, speakers are the only way forward. i've spent months mixing stuff in phones and at the end of it all decided i was no good at mixing when it was just the way i was referencing that was the problem. akg are about the best and most affordable reference phones around but aren't cheap. monitors are generally cheaper than decent headphones. m-audio monitors are cheap and chearful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 thanks for that, i am tending to come to the same conclusions as you letts i looked up the HD280 Pro and then i got onto a guy here in Aus and had a chat with him this morning, he told me the same as you, it has something to do with room sound he says and to be a meter or so away from the sound to get a true idea. he said that even though he sells many high quality desk phones that he believed that my problems could not be solved in this way even at the risk of losing a sale to me. i have sent him pics of my studio and three songs i have done, even the song that did well in Thailand was crap really, what can i say Thai females are hopeless romantics i think lol and after all the song is called "You Are Everything" anyway he is sending me info on cheap but workable monitors, he suggested that headphones have their place but not in the final mix, which is after all my greatest problem. Thanks for your inputs Regards HowardH By the way That song Dear God by XTC, what a great song, i cant believe i never heard it before, very good writing as well HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 The guys over at sound on sound have suggested that headphones are actually often a better way to go than cheaper monitors in a space that's non-optimal and from my experience I agree. I have the HD280 pros and they're ok (great for live mixing and tracking duties because they attenuate outside sound so effectively), but for reference mixing I'd get an open-backed design as the bass never sounds 'right' on closed-back 'phones. I like Sennheisers but at the high end of the market Sony and Beyer also have some good options - not the DT100s though! 150s maybe? FWIW when I auditioned a load of budget/mid-priced monitors in an acoustically treated fairly flat/neutral room I was surprised how much variation there was between different models at the lower end of the market. I'd say you have to spend at least £500 before things start to get more uniform and transparent, and then you still have the problem of the room you're mixing in needing to be optimised. A £150 set of open-backed headphones will comfortably outperform any monitors of equivalent price, with the caveat that you have to be aware of binaural effects versus widefield stereo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Mix through monitor speakers. Absolutely monitor speakers. Some bass frequencies have a wavelength of a couple of feet. You simply won't be able to appreciate ALL of the sound when the speakers are an inch from your ear canal... So to sum up, monitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 that is fascinating Lawrence now i have a bigger headache though what phones if any do you suggest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Paul that is what the guy told me at the place but lawrence says they are all different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I'd always mix on speakers first and foremost. The only reason to mix on headphones would be to check that your mix still sounds good on the average pair of iPod phones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 but the problem with normal headphones is they all sound different, i have five pairs right here and each one sounds different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomTFS Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Sennheiser HD25's are the industry standard, and for good reason. I love mine, and most other sound engineers use them too. As was said earlier however, i would recommend mixing on some monitors, or at least decent speakers of some kind. Headphones never sound the same and can drastically skew the way you mix. Headphones are just to check as a different sound style, and are more for live use really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 thanks Tom, i am wondering if i should get the headphones and get just normal speakers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 what is the difference in open and closed headphones? and can you tell me does the SENNHEISER HD25 HD 25-1 II Pro Monitoring Headphone need an amp to get the quality for mixing out of it? because that would add to the price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Look out for a used set of Alesis M1 Mk2 powered monitors. I went to Digital Village a few years ago and tried out loads of monitors and liked these the most - and they also happened to be the cheapest. You can get a pair used for around £120 and have amps built into them. It's also good to do monitoring on standard hi-fi equipment though as that's what people will be listening through! The headfi.org forums are a great place for headphone guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Thanks Danny i am looking up the speakers now regards HowardH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='hhoward' post='1141365' date='Feb 25 2011, 03:45 PM']but the problem with normal headphones is they all sound different, i have five pairs right here and each one sounds different[/quote] Yes but so do speakers. The trick is to get some good quality studio speakers and them spend a lot of time listening to your favourite tracks through them to get a feel for the sound before you start mixing your own stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [quote name='BigRedX' post='1143185' date='Feb 27 2011, 12:05 PM']Yes but so do speakers.[/quote] Yes, this is the point - ALL cheap stuff sounds very obviously different because it all colours the sound in different ways as each manufacturer chooses a different set of compromises. As you start to get more expensive, the sounds start to converge as the colourations become less noticeable and they get closer to 'flat clean' response. The key difference between headphones and speakers is that the price-point at which you start to notice this convergence is a lot lower for the 'phones than the speakers! FWIW I have the Alesis M1 MkIIs, and I also chose them over a lot of other reference monitors after auditioning them as Dannybuoy did. They were sonically closest in character to the £600 Genelecs, and fairly detailed sound. However they have a more smeared bass end than the Genelecs and the Genelecs are even more detailed. The Genelecs weren't even the best speakers there. If you spend £150 on well-chosen headphones you will get a 'truer' representation of the music than similarly priced monitors, other than the stereo imaging (but that to me is not such an issue since at least half the time people are listening on headphones anyway these days). Open or closed back headphones: the open let the sound out both sides, the closed have a sealed cup around the ear. The open 'phones give a clearer, less distorted bass response and are what I'd choose to mix on except in situations where you absolutely have to block out external noise or prevent too much sound leaking out of the 'phones'. This is why people use things like the HD25s, they're good all-round mix headphones for live use as they block out a decent amount of the outside sound and have a fairly detailed midrange. But they're not as good for the studio as a decent open design. Whatever you use to mix on, you have to get used to how it sounds and how the mixes translate to other systems - use commercial tracks that you know well as a reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Oh yes, and I can hear more detail in a mix on the Sennheiser HD280s than on the Alesis M1s, but I wouldn't trust the bass end mixed on either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hhoward Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 wow. thanks Lawrence, i think that i will do it this way then, i will get the sennheiser's first, then keep looking for Alesis to come up on Ebay, from that point just keep playing my favourite music on them, get used to the sounds and then focus on getting as close as i can. People keep saying that they hear The Cure in my music so i guess i should play cure a lot. lol but if anyone out they has Sennheiser HP280 pro's and and Alesis M1 MkII's for sale PLEASE let me know, maybe then i can get both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 [quote name='hhoward' post='1144111' date='Feb 28 2011, 03:25 AM']but if anyone out they has Sennheiser HP280 pro's and and Alesis M1 MkII's for sale PLEASE let me know, maybe then i can get both[/quote] I'd suggest you have a look at these articles: [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/articles/mixingheadphones.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/arti...gheadphones.htm[/url] [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan10/articles/studioheadphones.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan10/arti...oheadphones.htm[/url] [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun02/articles/sennheiserhd600.asp"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun02/arti...heiserhd600.asp[/url] Note what they say about open/semi-open v closed back - although the HD280s are rated highly as 'best budget closed-back' they may not be as good a choice as an equivalent-priced Sennheiser open-back design for studio-based mixing. Unfortunately they don't have any budget open-backed models in the test, I've included the link to the HD600 and I think there's also an updated 650 version, but these may be a bit expensive - maybe check out the 595s/598s? These last two I haven't heard personally but I'd expect them to be more natural than the 280s. Btw the other nice thing about open-backed headphones compared to closed that I've found, is that they tend to be comfier when worn for long periods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skol303 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Plenty of good advice in this thread! People tend to recommend what they use themselves, so my advice would be to try before you buy. That said, you generally can't go wrong with a pair of Sennheisers... but my personal preference would be a pair of AKGs (I own 'phones made by both brands). One of the best bargains I've found are the AKG K240 MK 2 (MK II): [url="http://www.dawsons.co.uk/acatalog/akg_k240_mk_2_stereo_studio_headphones.html"]http://www.dawsons.co.uk/acatalog/akg_k240...headphones.html[/url] Unbeatable 'phones for your buck$! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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