Swing - Help!

[spongebob]

I've been making some inroads with a singer who currently performs swing sets (Darin/Sinatra/Monroe) etc. with backing tracks.

He wants to do it with a small set-up pretty soon - bass, piano, maybe guitar.

I've gone headlong into this - love a challenge and a chance to widen my repertoire - but I don't know the stuff to well.

Any advice on playing in this style? I don't read music and never use tab....I always play by ear.

However, some of the changes are quite hard to make out - does anyone know of any sites with easy transcriptions of some tracks? Just the key parts and I can fill the rest in myself!

I may be mad, but at least it'll keep me busy as my 'main' band fell apart today!

[Doddy]

Do you understand chord structures?
You'll need a decent knowledge of arpeggios,as you want to be outlining the changes. Using scales will also help you make a flowing walking line.

You don't necessarily need to read dots,but it will help you big time,because you'll be able to check out the Real Books and play the melodies. It'll also help you to follow the changes,at least while you are learning the tunes.

[lowdown]

All of Doddy's advice....
And remember you don't have to play 4's all the time - 2 sits good under some of those vocal tunes.


Garry

[Bilbo]

If you have no reading skills, get some. Reading walking lines is easy as there are no complex rhythms, just straight quarter notes.

Doddy is right, you need chord and scale theory to do it properly.

Get loads of jazz cds and listen to the walking bass lines. Then, in about 20 years, you should be ready

Seriously, walking bass is one of those things that takes a short while to learn and a lifetime to master. If you are playing standards, get the lead sheets and listen to the versions your singer wants to mirror, just to get a feel for where the harmony goes. Hum the root notes as the charts pass and try to internalise the root movement. Then fill in the gaps. Remember, the lead sheets may not be in teh same key as the singer wants to play the tunes so, if s/he has charts, use them.

[spongebob]

I've always been a good instinctive player....I've played a little jazz in the past....tend to just gain the basic note structure and kind of fill in the gaps....!

[Doddy]

[quote name='spongebob' post='1131378' date='Feb 17 2011, 06:31 PM']I've always been a good instinctive player....I've played a little jazz in the past....tend to just gain the basic note structure and kind of fill in the gaps....![/quote]

Unfortunately,it's not as simple as just filling in the gaps instinctively. You really should understand what works over what chords. Just busking it from the root note alone isn't enough.

[jakenewmanbass]

It's difficult to appreciate, when you don't know what constitutes a good walking bass line, just how much knowledge goes into it, it [i]can[/i] be done by ear, but you will need to absorb a lot of reference material, for god's sake put enough time in to avoid sounding like the unmitigated drivel fest that is the 'walking bass line'* on that great insult to jazz bass which is moondance, I prefer to call it moonflatulence as it is a travesty and a well known one at that.
Listen to Ray Brown, or any of the bass players with Billy May, Nelson Riddle orchestras. You have your work cut out to do a really good job and the obvious thing to say is have a few lessons with a proper jazzer in your area, someone who not only knows what they are doing themselves but who also can describe the mechanics clearly and effectively. Anything below that level will be awful cos to do it well you really need to know your stuff...

* in fact it's not a walking bass line, it's a poor unsuspecting bass player who said yes to the session when he was way out of his depth.

[jakenewmanbass]

Now for some practical advice....
Learn the chord sequence off by heart, learn to mark it out with a strong feel by playing simply, understand what the changes do all by themselves (ie just playing the root) Once you are adept at that then start to think about playing other chord and scale based notes, with chord tones make a strong sense of what the chord is, with scale tones think about the way in which they can be used to get you from one chord in the sequence to the next.... Those bits of advice really really really are just the most basic elements, but will get you a long way if you take the advice to heart and spend time on learning sequences properly... eg you should be able to sing the changes from memory!

Take good stock of what the 3rd and 5th and 7th do in any given scale whether that be major minor or dominant... learn all those chord qualities and be able to reproduce them at will.

[Tech]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1131386' date='Feb 17 2011, 06:38 PM']Unfortunately,it's not as simple as just filling in the gaps instinctively. You really should understand what works over what chords. Just busking it from the root note alone isn't enough.[/quote]

+1, unfortunately the more you know about walking bass the more you know you don't know. I used to think I could get by OK, and there wasn't much competition back home so I still got gigs, but in retrospect I was really just faffing about.

I've been playing the guitar pretty much exclusively for the last couple of years and recently started exploring jazz guitar. Knowing all the chords and modes from that perspective has really helped me conceptualize what's going on in the bass and why it's so important to know your theory inside out.. I'm thinking it's time I returned back to the bass to do it properly myself, but this time trying to look at the big picture and not just take each chord as it comes.

hope it goes well for you OP

[spongebob]

Thanks everybody.

I must say I am pretty intimidated by the idea......but I'll obviously do my best and see how we go.

It started as as a 'yeah, or course...' and has ended up in 'oh ****'!!!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='spongebob' post='1132465' date='Feb 18 2011, 05:15 PM']Thanks everybody.

I must say I am pretty intimidated by the idea......but I'll obviously do my best and see how we go.

It started as as a 'yeah, or course...' and has ended up in 'oh ****'!!![/quote]
If you do it you will get an immense sense of satisfaction... it's so great to swing away playing lines as they come into your head... Go for it!

[machinehead]

I took on a similar gig last year. I had to learn 38 songs only a handful of which I knew before. It was bloody hard work and I spent hours and f***** hours practicing the songs.

In the end I just about got away with it but in no way did I feel like I came anywhere near doing the genre any justice.

I did learn a lot though, mostly that after 40 years as a musician, I still have a hell of a lot to learn.

I think it will improve you as a player and should be quite enjoyable. But do expect to spend hours learning and practicing.

Frank.

[thumperbob 2002]

Looks like a bit of woodshedding is needed. Can't really understand why you would do his without being a reader as the time it will take to just learn them will be amazing. Being a reader will reduce the time massively. The dots for all these songs are always available so why don't you combine the two skills- ears and dots. After a few you'll be able to work them out and maybe you will start to recognize the patterns. Reading straight off is difficult but if you get the dots they will make learning the songs so much easier and you might pick up a new skill.

It is great to be out of your comfort zone!!!

[machinehead]

I did have the sheet music for 90% of the songs but my reading is very poor through lack of use. It certainly did help but I still had to practice a hell of a lot. It helped that my music theory is just OK and I know scales/ modes and how chords are built.

The truth is (and this is not at all false modesty) that I'm really just an old hacker. But at least I'm an experirenced old hacker.

Frank

[BassBus]

I'll stick my head above the parapet ready to be shouted down loadly.

The above advice in time should be used, of course. But you can have all the technique and theory under your belt but if you don't have the feel for the music you might end up making the band sound boaring. I work as a counsellor and it has been long accepted that even with all the technique and skill in the world, if you cannot develop a counselling relationship with your clients you are a lot less likely to be of use to the client. On the other hand if you have a strong ability at developing that relationship but are not up to scratch with skills, you will more than likely be of great use to the client.

For me the same applies to swing. First off listen, listen, listen. I don't think you can be taught to feel the swing in music. You have to pick it up by ear. I'm not saying don't learn the theory, far from it. However, I find sometimes that too much theory and technique can make things a bit clinical and encourage the snobs in this world.

Develop a feel for the music and just go for it.

I have my armour on.

[Doddy]

[quote name='BassBus' post='1134152' date='Feb 20 2011, 10:53 AM']For me the same applies to swing. First off listen, listen, listen. I don't think you can be taught to feel the swing in music. You have to pick it up by ear. I'm not saying don't learn the theory, far from it. However, I find sometimes that too much theory and technique can make things a bit clinical and encourage the snobs in this world.

Develop a feel for the music and just go for it.[/quote]

I'm not going to shout you down,but I will say something about this bit.

Can you actually know and have "too much theory and technique"? I don't think you can. Knowing a lot
about music will never,on it's own,be a hinderance. It will only ever sound clinical if you don't know how
to apply it to the music.
Likewise,you might have the feel and be able to swing like crazy,but if you're constantly playing
wrong notes it will still sound like sh*t. Having a great feel alone won't get you gigs,if you don't
know what to play over a G7 chord.
Ideally,you should know what you are playing and be able to apply it musically.

[skej21]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1134555' date='Feb 20 2011, 05:30 PM']Having a great feel alone won't get you gigs,if you don't
know what to play over a G7 chord.
Ideally,you should know what you are playing and be able to apply it musically.[/quote]

+ 1000000000000000000000000

If you can't play over a simple G7 chord, how are you going to manage to understand the complexities of REAL extended chords, like a maj7#5b13?

I think the simplicity of SOME (note I said SOME!) rock and pop lulls people into a false sense of security, particularly when they have little theory knowledge.

Being able to busk some lines over a basic G5 or Gsus4 chord (Power/Sus chord) which contains no defining/colouring notes (like a 3rd of 7th) is very easy and makes you think you have a better ear than you really do, because most things sound good over a powerchord... that's the point of them.

Needless to say, there is a huge gulf between busking some lines to a powerchord and being able to create lines over continuously evolving chord sequences with complex extended chords! That's why the scales/chords/theory is vital if you want to do it justice.