EBS_freak

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380552687' post='2226959'] Are many of the customers just as much of a pain in the arse as many of the builders though? People who think they know what they want but can't communicate it, or think they will get the perfect bass when in fact it will be pretty much like any other bass of similar spec, just looking different. Custom Bass Disease. Everyone loves a good build thread. They love the transformation of an old bit of diseased wood that looks like anything in yer dad's shed to when they start bevelling edges and sculpting laminated neck heels, then that magic rub with a bit of water to show how wickid the grain will look when the Ronseal goes on Sadly that's the only bit that 'does what it says on the tin', the rest of it is just a bass that you have no idea about, how it will feel, what it will sound like, or when you will get it. All you really want is to see your custom bass being made from bits of wood and metal and being transformed over an excruciating period of time into what you think you will have an everlasting loving relationship with. [/quote] Ah so romantic! This is true - for a lot of people, it's that promise of nirvana, all their dreams answered.... when in reality, it's the build that is the bit that captures their imagination, rather than the finished product. Just because you can choose from an almost limited amount of options, doesn't mean you should. Choose all the woods you want, choose your pickups, circuits... spec this, spec that... the only way you know what it sounds like, how it plays like, is when it's in your hands... And when it is in your hands, you have to convince your friends it's the best thing ever... before you put if up for sale months later in BC classified. See it all too often... On the otherside, when you do get it right (and I like to think I got it right with my 3 - of which I can not think of any other basses I'd much rather have), it can be great. I've heard lots of horror stories from luthiers... why would you order a 5 string 35" scale fretless when you've never played a 5er and you're used to playing on a 34" 4 banger? Why would you change the spacing to something you've never experienced before? Why complain that bass sounds nothing like a P/J/MM when the bass you specced has no resemblance? Absolutely crazy... Go on, say it xilddx... say my new favourite quote...!

Good stuff - what colour scheme did you go for in the end then? (this is a very important factor when it comes to cIEMs!) What are you using in front of you IEMs? Wired/Wireless?

[quote name='pierreganseman' timestamp='1380551548' post='2226930'] I would have had not a single problem with them. If they had COMMUNICATE!! [/quote] Luthiers have a particular skill when they do choose to communicate. When contacting a certain luthier about my specific problem... "If it's good enough for <famous bass player #1> and <famous bass player #2>, then it's good enough for you." Charming!

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380550265' post='2226902'] I've had numerous custom builds and special order basses done for me over the years , and all of them were, on the whole, overwhelmingly positive experiences in terms of the honesty and good intentions of the builders. However, I have learnt to take most projected delivery dates from smaller builders with a pinch of salt , as in practise they seldom are finished on time . The waiting for pickups/hardware from a third party excuse is [i]very [/i]common .( To be perfectly honest with you , I take most manufacturers claims for the superlative quality of their work with a pinch of salt, too , but that is probably a topic for another thread. ) The thing is , though , that custom bass building is not , on the whole, the kind of activity that attracts the most organised and hard-headed of businessmen, and I am sure a lot of these guys have the best of intentions but are out of their depth in trying to organise themselves , their resources and their time to meet their obligations to the customer. When you visit them in person , a lot of big- name custom bass builders are basically very modest cottage industries trying to subsist by doing what they love. I am not trying to excuse anybody who has behaved irresponsibly or dishonestly , but I cannot think that a lot of these " rogue" builders are in fact just hapless rather than malicious or conniving in any way to do people out of their money . What is for certain , however, is that if as a builder you take someone's money then you are morally obligated to honour that contract . [/quote] Best post of the thread I've read so far... (excluding my own, naturally )

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380548576' post='2226855'] The one about your bad neck, maybe you need a lighter bass! [/quote] Yeah, causes me a lot of pain, doesn't seem to lie right even now.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1380548661' post='2226859'] I know of a few luthiers who are dependent on pick up and hardware suppliers for builds. But they're also custom builders and it doesn't make sense for them to stockpile for custom options. Thats just how it is. I like Wal, Ken Smith and Jaydee - they are more manufacturers than luthiers although they do have the luthiery skills to fall back obviosly. But they offer their product warts and all on a take it or leave it basis. This means they can pre order components and can be a little more accurate with delivery. [/quote] I kinda get where you are coming from - they are custom in the fact that they supply a finite number of options... and as a consequence are more of an assembly line as opposed to a true custom shop. I can only imagine the frustrations of the guys that get orders such as - "Can you make me a xyz fret neck - I know you only seem to do 22". - cue a load of work in creating new drawings, jigs - etc. It's not business as usual. Now, rightly or wrongly, put yourself in the luthier's position, are you going to work on that bass that you know you can get out of the door and get some money in your pocket when times are tight because you've got the whole process of construction nailed to it's completion... or are you going to be interested in ignoring your bills and getting on with that one which is going to cost you more time and money than usual... and so starts the trend of delivery times slipping... So why do these guys agree to such changes? Because peversely, they need the money and need to take on that build!

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380547725' post='2226839'] I'd like to hear your story. It might stop me ordering from whoever it is in the future. [/quote] You only have to drop me a PM.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380547473' post='2226832'] I was just looking at your Facebook status dude, made for an interesting read! [/quote] Which status in particular?

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1380547229' post='2226820'] I'm afraid there are just as many I've worked with that don't get anywhere close to these standards. Some are very apologetic but others just throw their hands up and say it's all part of the job. I often hear that it's a third party fault (especially in terms of hardware and electronics) but I'm not sure this is really a valid excuse. With many instruments having long build times I'd expect the builder to have pre-ordered all third-party components. Could be cash-flow that's the issue here. Few of these guys will get any form of credit so they have to pay upfront for all hardware etc. [/quote] This is very true - I remember being gazumped a few times with an order of mine, because another customer had put in a very large order. Obviously, money talks (and it shouldn't because after all, fairs fair, I was first in the queue)... but from a business point of few in terms of retaining large spending customers, they are going to take the priority from little old me. It's only when you learn that the other needed to be fulfilled to get the cash to complete my order, then things start making sense! Interesting that you bring up hardware molan - it's true, hardware seems to be the biggy. Importing hardware from the US, China or Japan, (ignoring ABM (who are pretty small anyway) and Schaller in the EU), where the majority of the hardware comes from, is not only expensive in terms of goods themselves, but can be a pricey affair in terms of post and import (and then there's the shipping time). It's much easier to order in bulk, but it's not the average luthier who can afford to stockpile a load of hardware, even though it will get used, because its often the case the money is needed elsewhere. At this point, it's probably worth pointing out there are two reasons behind the problems being talked about here - economics... and people generally just being sh1t. Both are quite difficult to influence.

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1380546806' post='2226808'] That's the point I am trying to make, we [u]will[/u] take our business elsewhere, and that's why we need people telling us about their bad experiences, so we don't make the same mistakes. By saying, "put up and shut up" it seems to imply that we should except it if you get shafted, and then take your business elsewhere, surely it is better to be warned first. [/quote] Missing the point - if you want something that only a certain manufacturer can offer and can't go elsewhere... then you either don't have it, or be subject to their way of work (whether you agree with it or not!). You aren't going to get a Wal from anybody but Wal. You aren't going to get a Kingbass from anybody but Status. If you absolutely must have item "xyz" and manufacturer "abc" is the only person in the world that makes it... your options are limited. (Again, I stress, rightly or wrongly... I still stand by the fact, in that case, as crude as the words are, "put up and shut up".) And lets face it, one person's experience with a company is different to anothers. For example, my experience with a certain luthier bucks the trend of their reputation... and even if I told the story, it is unlikely to put anybody else off. Sad as it may seem, it's a case of doing your own homework and buyer beware.

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1380545875' post='2226783'] The quality is more often than not very, very variable with inconsistencies and high failure rates for items even from the same batch. In my case I'm talking about electronic components and high volume injection moulded parts, where it would have been better in hindsight to deal with the higher prices and slower turnaround of a European manufacturer. [/quote] Welcome to the world of the bean counters. Taking into account the failure rates and the cost to fix those failures, it will still be cheaper to fix on fail then build at a premium. Annoys me too.

[quote name='chriswareham' timestamp='1380545875' post='2226783'] Not too convinced by the idea that Chinese manufacturers are doing well because of great customer service. In my experience they are successful thanks to the exchange rates that allow them to sell to countries such as the UK at very attractive prices. The quality is more often than not very, very variable with inconsistencies and high failure rates for items even from the same batch. In my case I'm talking about electronic components and high volume injection moulded parts, where it would have been better in hindsight to deal with the higher prices and slower turnaround of a European manufacturer. [/quote] If you actually were to deal with the Chinese who are bidding for new business, they are customer service through and through. Now don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the exploitation that they are doing with regards to labour - but they have to be the best in terms of quality and customer service or otherwise their Chinese neighbour will win the business. Take a look at your phone... I pretty much guarantee that the your Apple, Samsung or whatever, was built by the factory that could not only deliver the goods but bent over backwards to get the business in the first place... ...and here we come back full circle. If you want the goods, you'll wait. You know a BF cab for example, is going to be months... and there are posts on here quite recently about inaccurately quoted delivery times. If you want a BF and nothing else will do, you don't really have a lot of options. You are subject to their way of working... and their timescales. What aren't people getting about my comments?

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380545736' post='2226778'] These w***ers must be pissing themselves laughing when they see people like you making excuses for them. [/quote] Err... I'm not making excuses. I'm actually agreeing with people... just saying, nothing is going to change. It's been it like the 70s... and it's not changing soon. Those that evolve, survive, those that don't, get eaten. Speak with you wallet. Take your business elsewhere.

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1380545838' post='2226782'] I can't believe you can come out with that! [/quote] I know, it's great isn't it?

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1380542998' post='2226719'] And that attitude is the problem. How are current or future luthiers who do do this sort of thing supposed to learn if no one does anything? The fact that there is a lack of genuine two way communication with both builders to me and the fact I don't want to resort to legal action (which is an absolute resort) means that I come here to air my grievances. [/quote] Not an attitude at all. An acceptance of what is the case. Believe me, I wish everything in the world ran like clockwork too. The fact is, you are dealing with people. And people all work in very different ways. I must reinforce the fact, I don't think it's right... it's just that I know how these companies work... and very little is going to change quickly. Looking at the list from LukeFRC, I know people who would share a different view for all but 2 of those companies. I've dealt with enough people to realise that this is the case... and why people like the Chinese are doing so well. They realise the importance of customer service and as a consequence, are the ones that are winning the business. For example, I follow a (very angry) pickup maker on Facebook. I don't even know if his pickups are any good - it just amuses me how he seems to think the customer is always wrong, his stuff is the best in the world, yet he's making no money. He isn't listening to anybody or their opinions (why should he when he believes in his products to the extent that he does)... and will no doubt find out the hard way. Sue him, speak to him, state that he's being unreasonable, slag him off on a forum - I already know his response (and it's hilarious, that's why I follow him). Put this all together... and that's why the only people who are buying from him are the guys that love his products and will put up with the bullshit and time delays involved in buying his pickups. These people don't change. They are artisans who generally (i.e. I'm not talking about every manufacturer here) have no idea about business. Legal action will push them to throw the towel in. Just sayin'.

[quote name='Shockwave' timestamp='1380535586' post='2226596'] Why make excuses for them? I just ask for honesty from the start to finish and I ask for a generous estimate with added time for it to be completed, however this leeway I feel it is treated by builders as time to just stop building altogether, or extra time not to start it for ages in the first place and I have not been given any reason to believe otherwise (Due to lack of communication, honesty or/and explanations). If I was given a valid reason as to why someone elses later order was built ahead of mine then I would be fine with it. The issues I have with these custom builders are not my fault and I should not be held to fault for their mistakes, dishonesty or lack of communication. [/quote] I'm not making excuses for them. Far from it. I'm just saying, it's commonplace, rightly or wrongly. If you buy off the shelf, then you can get it there and then. Anything custom can be hit and miss - and guitar builders (not all I hasten to add) are one of the worst culprits. But it's certainly not limited to the luthiers. Honesty is something I would always look for - and these guys just want to keep the customer happy. If they f**k up, they have a habit of hiding under a rock. (which is probably where you are now) I've been a cutomer of a couple of luthiers - both showed similar traits with regards to timescales... but both have a product that I couldn't get elsewhere. I wanted their product, therefore I had to wait... and ultimately, I was (mostly) thrilled with the end product. One of the luthiers in question above is very highly regarded round this way - but my experience with him with him was awful... and something I never want to deal with again... which is fine because the experience made me fall out of love with his products. Having to wait and then be presented with a POS is the real problem. Problem solved, I won't be knocking on his door again - and I was a problem free customer - contacted him once to order, contacted him after receiving the goods after the inevitable wait. The wait was one thing, the barrel of BS after was a completely different thing. I could have posted on here about the experience... but there are so many fanbois, it would have been futile. So in short, I'm not surprised by what I read here... and I don't condone such behaviour... just saying if you can't cope with it, don't go for custom builds... or put up and shut up cos nothing is changing!

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380532038' post='2226522'] Surely the construction methods are irrelevant? I'm talking about sticking to a quoted build time. I understand that to hand make everything takes longer but that's not an excuse for quoting inaccurate build times, just quote a longer timescale... but still stick to it. I also have to quote deadlines in my job. If things are tight I will allow extra time in my deadline to cover any disasters or unforeseen events, the timescales I quote are longer than the actual time it will take me to do the work, this is because my deadlines are then promised to clients further up the line. Missing them is not an option, if I was to miss a single deadline I would never work in the industry again. This is not a problem, I just ensure I never miss them. I would imagine this is the case for a lot of people... Rob [/quote] I agree - but the reality of the matter is, it isn't limited to guitar builders. It's pretty much universal in any small, cottage industry bespoke manufacturer. Ever order a custom pair of shoes or clothing? The point is, if you really want the product, you'll wait... especially if the manufacturer is making you something that is unique. Doesn't make it right... it's just the nature of it.

I love Barefaced cabs.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380530566' post='2226497'] I can't see this happening with Sandberg... [/quote] To be fair, its not fair comparing the small independent luthier with the likes of cnc based sandberg...

Acs custom!

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1380308460' post='2223710'] To answer your question simply, no, and any bass you think looks good when you're holding it will look good hanging up. [/quote] Roscoe LG. Looks sh*t on the wall. Looks awesome when strapped on you.

Quite excited - I have been auditioning a truck load of iems against my T1s. Looking forward to some JHA16 action... my credit card is trembling. How this came about is that I was talking about ACS and the T1s, (being more than peeved that the ambient system still hasn't materialised) and I started thinking, given what the retail price on these ambient systems are reporting to be, it may aswell be prudent to look at other IEMs to gauge how good my ACS T1s fair against some of the real top end IEMs. I haven't missed the ambient sound at this stage - I thought I would (hence my want of the ambient system)... so thought I would investigate just how good the quality of the sound coming from the ACS really is and maybe rethink. Who knows...

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1380115246' post='2221000'] We must be mad [/quote] acceptance is the first step to recovery... so they say.

That's grand... but he did say he wanted custom wording...

Invest in a decent DI, or even better, a decent mic pre/channel strip that you can use for a whole load of things. Alot of bass players will bring their own amp if they give a crap. Having said that, the DI on an amp is unlikely to be as good as a dedicated DI... and if you want to mic a cab, that opens up a whole argument and expense about mics. There's always the option of reamping anyway (record direct then feed that back through an amp on playback and recording the amp's output). For that, these are quite cool - [url="http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/Amp_Interface.htm"]http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/Amp_Interface.htm[/url] I would suggest against something like a B15. It was the go to amp... but they just aren't versatile enough to cope with the wide style of bass playing nowadays.