EBS_freak

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380622731' post='2227880'] It's nice! Quite a pleasing design, but surely neck binding is not too much to ask? I was after a Mayonnaise Jabbahut that looked a bit like that, but in shell pink. Got that chrome Warwick instead. [/quote] I think it's a stunning take on classic meets elephant - and I'm not usually a SC fan. Customer pays for what the customer says... guessing this customer didn't want binding on his bass - these are all built to customer spec... and I love (most) of the ones that have come out of this luthiers stable.

[quote name='Prosebass' timestamp='1380585076' post='2227587'] Who is this? [/quote] The years haven't been kind to Eddie.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380620974' post='2227853'] Tone is all in the fingers as long as those fingers are stroking some bookmatched diseased wood in the shape of a sperm whale with elephantitis. [/quote] Meet you half way Mr xilddx? Been trying to put myself off this one for months now...

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380616852' post='2227772'] I think it's a useful thread. If I'd have read this before ordering my custom build five months ago I would have thought twice about ordering it... ... then probably ordered it anyway thinking it wouldn't happen to me When I ordered the bass the plan was, if it turned out as I wanted, I'd order a similar fretless version on the back of it. I can say now that I definitely will not be ordering another custom build. Rob [/quote] I don't think the thread should put anybody off from buying a custom bass - far from it. Custom basses done right are beautiful things. I currently have 3 in my crop of basses and they are exactly what I wanted. I couldn't go into a shop and get anything remotely like the ones that I have right through to sound, finishes and electronics. But what I will say, is that I set it clear in my mind that these basses may or may not arrive quickly... and I talked with the luthier in great detail about what I did and didn't want. I played a lot of his basses and said what I liked and disliked about all of his basses. I even went as far as saying don't lacquer the necks until I had played them unlacquered because if the neck profiles weren't comfortable, I would hate the basses. I listened to his views of what and wouldn't work... and you know what, all three basses are amongst the best things I've ever bought. Everything is absolutely spot on. I think I echo some of the thoughts shared here about people not knowing what they want... or falling in love with the notion of buying a bass that will fix all their problems. More often than not, the problem is not the bass - but the player. And yeah, a J bass is a wonderful thing Nige! Although I'm not sure that I agree with the buying of a new neck ha ha ha ha....

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380620974' post='2227853'] Tone is all in the fingers as long as those fingers are stroking some bookmatched diseased wood in the shape of a sperm whale with elephantitis. [/quote] Dont forget that it has to be a non standard scale too. Oh. And don't forget the ramp.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380616852' post='2227772'] I think it's a useful thread. If I'd have read this before ordering my custom build five months ago I would have thought twice about ordering it... ... then probably ordered it anyway thinking it wouldn't happen to me [/quote] :-p

http://www.bowfinishing.co.uk/

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1380566576' post='2227226'] So potentially out of the named and shamed only Jon Letts will see this. So actually only he will feel shame if he comes back on here! I wouldn't! It's not really an open letter then. It's kinda a letter to Jon Letts. Best pay for an ad in the Daily Mail. Have a go at the immigrants too! [/quote] True. This thread only seems to have had a purpose if a bass suddenly materialises because the majority of the content in here is widely being ignored.

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1380571365' post='2227362'] Good business ethics is what we should expect from any business as a matter of course, not just luthiers, and we shouldn't have to "put up and shut up" [/quote] Agreed. Unless they are selling a unique product that you can't get elsewhere then you are kinda screwed. There seems to be an echo.

PS just to clarify, not saying that custom guys behaviour is right, just saying why it is like it is.

[quote name='alyctes' timestamp='1380582622' post='2227572'] This. [Disclaimer: Never bought a custom anything...] [/quote] Try reading the thread again.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1380564041' post='2227165'] What I don't understand is the business model most these UK based guys work on. With few exceptions I can't work out what their unique selling point is. I mean when I first started on basschat everyone was going mad about Shuker - and I'm sure they're good basses but I can't work out what makes them any different than a similar super jazz that someone else could make. ACG have their preamp and a bit more considered body shapes (I'm a designer/visual artist so that's where that opinion comes from) which sets them apart a bit, ... but apart from that I can't think of many who stand out of the "newer" builders - If you think of the slightly older UK builders if I said JD, Wal, Status or Overwater, then you can Imagine what the bass would look, and to a certain extent sound like. Some of the newer lot.... I don't get what it is that they are doing particularly. IMO it would make more sense to come up with something exceptional and sell that, rather than make whatever the (uneducated) punter wants. I guess I also think that a hand built bass isn't nesserally better than a 3D CNDed bass fretted by a robot (a la Warwick) when it comes down to the finished product... I'm guessing the tolerances on a computer can be far far smaller.... I get it. As an apendium, Most electric bass guitars are a bit more low tech than a new Morgan, and something like Wal inspired pickups could be built at home if you wanted too and put in the time/effort. [/quote] I don't get the J bass thing either. By their very nature they are a production line instrument. May as well get a Warmoth body and neck and customise to your hearts content. Of course this doesn't give the same birthing process that I think many crave. Warmoth will cater for your choice of wood and make pretty much anything you want within a standard j bass spec. Only if there is something truly whacky about your desired spec I could see why you must go custom. The thing is, luthiers can come up with something whacky... And it won't sell. People want the normality of a j bass but not the normality of a Fender. Time and time again you see luthiers start off with something out of the norm... Then plump for a j bass. Why? Cos it sells and is a timeless shape. I can see why guys like ACG, Wal, GB, Alembic and Schack to name a few, do well. Their usp is all in their electronics. Nothing else sounds like them and the full electronics package and pickups are generally not available for purchase to put in other basses. And quite right too. As for Morgan, it's not a literal comparison... But there are elements of a bass that are not as straightforward either. Take this for example... http://www.gbguitars.co.uk/images/innovation/detail/bass_preamp_lg.jpg That's years of r and d and each one of those circuits are hand soldered and matched to the pickups it will work with. That's not your normal plug and play circuit. I'd say elements of this are on par with a Morgan personally... Remember, Morgan don't build their own engines for starters. The actual production is vastly different but my stance on only a Morgan will do if the buyer wants a Morgan still stands. As for the Wal pickups, it's not as simple as that either. Where are you going to find a Wal pickup to reverse engineer? If you find one, are you going to destroy it in your quest to replicate it? Have you got the winders to make it a viable process? Are you going to invest the time and money to buy all the components (in small but expensive quantities) to test it all? And remember, the pickups are only half of the Wal sound. Yes, they could be built at home... But in reality they are not are they? Especially as a one off. That's why our New Jersey friend tried to make a business venture out of it. You make it sound like its easy... But it's far from that. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it and cashing in.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1380559996' post='2227098'] I would've thought though that guitars are basically guitars and there's not much innovation going on and so no real opportunity for massive delays, excepting personal problems that might crop up. But when 'personal problems' become the norm and everything is always late you're left thinking maybe this guy isn't suited to self employment... [/quote] Yup, a bit of wood here, a bit of glue there, a few screws. Simples!

"ooh, imagine it in it's day..."

...in yellow.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380559847' post='2227094'] I was going to put a picture of a terrible Morgan style kit car on but I am on the works PC [/quote] Oh surely you'd buy an MR2 Ferrari?

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380559645' post='2227092'] I'd just go somewhere else, probably cheaper too [/quote] Vera vs Morgan? There's only one winner!

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380558883' post='2227076'] I said that because when I worked in a music shop many years ago we used to stock & order quite a bit from John. Some of the things he used to say were outrageous but he was a very funny bloke. The guy who ran the shop wanted to order a custom Supernatural bass with a small body - John said "If you want a small bodied bass f*** off & buy a Wal" & put the phone down. [/quote] Ha ha. Certainly rings true! There's a couple of other notable luthiers that spring to mind who would have reacted in the same way! I was meant to ask John how the f**k he solders the connections onto his pickups. Does he use a frickin' blowtorch or something? (Seems like a sensible approach to wiring basses - I hope he does cos I have got the most fantastic image in my mind at this point!)

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1380558329' post='2227063'] And thats peoples points here, that put up or shut up is dumb. How the hell does anyone know what a builder is like, if disgruntled customers didnt post their experiences? If you go to a custom luthier for the first time, you take him on face value, or you look for reports on his work ethic from others that have experienced that builder. Its not acceptable - not in the least. I certainly wouldnt order any bass from those named and shamed here, and thats thanks to the people who expose their shoddy work ethic. [/quote] Are people not reading my comments properly? It's not about going elsewhere or chosing other vendors... I am guessing Shockwave's choices for going with those manufacturers are because they offer something that other vendors dont. Jon Lett's guitars are certainly unique looking and not something that is readily available off the shelf and are in a style that is not typical or other luthiers. SGD pickups certainly have a rep over on talkbass - and I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if Shockwave had ordered one of those Wal inspired pickups. Now you tell me where you can readily get hold of a set of those. I know another certain luthier was working on getting some manufactured, but I know he wouldn't sell them outside of his basses, as they form part of the unique selling point of his basses. I would certainly suggest that people do their homework. Find you perfect luthier. Find your perfect pickup maker. Great. But if you want a XYZ product that is only available from Mr ABC, then you are in a put up or shut up situation (there's that phrase again for me to be misquoted on again). There are many luthiers that have certain reputations... but the top and tale of it, you have to deal with them if you want their product that badly. Jeez. You want something like a Morgan car? You join the (long) queue... you don't know exactly when it will be made... you just sit and wait until your number comes up? Not good enough? Buy one second hand or put up and shut up? You aren't going to get a new Morgan any other way. Yes, you can buy something else and take your money elsewhere... but you won't have a new Morgan. It doesn't matter what stories good or bad you are told... if you want something, in a way, you have to play their game despite you being the customer (and of course, the customer is always right). Totally wrong I know... but that's how it is when the seller has something that you want that you can't just pluck off the shelf. Yes, you shouldn't have to play the BS games... just depends how much you want that final product. Do you get it now?

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380558439' post='2227066'] This MUST have been John Diggins! [/quote] No cigar! But I can see where you are coming from!

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1380549428' post='2226879'] Yup, it's true, [i][b]feet [/b][/i]really are the new [i][b]handles[/b][/i]. Next on the list to bitch about: [list] [*]Grilles [*]Finish [*]Corners [*]Plywood [*]Shape [*]Colour [*]Weight [*]Smell [*]Price [*]Name [/list] [/quote] You forgot... Logo. Fair play for sorting the issues rather than not even acknowledging the problems!

At least he won't be sueing for copyright infringement on the headstock.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1380555190' post='2227016'] This is the main drawback of custom instruments. If a builder already produces an instrument that someone likes the sound of, its a relatively small jump for them to alter physical aspects such as body shape, string spacing and neck dimensions. Its a completely different ball park to specify a certain wood combination and expect the luthier to produce a specific sound from it that is unfamiliar to them. Sometimes that doesn't happen with some woods for any number of reasons. [/quote] Changing wood is the easiest thing to change though! Having said that, due to the nature wood, two basses made from the same wood, even from the same tree can sound vastly different. Wood is not uniform. Instuments may sound identical, similar or vastly different. Nobody can tell for sure what an instrument will sound like until it's strung up. Any luthier will be able to tell you that. Any luthier that says otherwise is a liar. Woods have characteristics yes but they can vary so much, sometimes it's not even worth talking about! People like Status have probably the best approach to getting similar sounding instruments - their construction is from a much more consistent material. Of course, the more active you go, the less important the choice of woods as the sound is coming more from the circuit and the pickups... Changing body shape, unless it's things like the radius of edges or similar, is a different kettle of fish completely. Changing scales, number of frets etc, can result in a lot of rework in the jigs... far more than just changing the wood of an instrument. PS - my problem was with the build of the product itself, not the sound, profile etc.

[quote] 5 - I'm never sure if I'll 'get on' with the builder. Not that I'm an arsehole or anything but because of stories like this. I'd forever see the bass as a reminder of the process and I'd really struggle to identify with an instrument I had to spend so much time and effort having made, ala Shockwave. Even if it was perfect, it would put me off. As it stands, I've had several communications with the guy who owns Vigier, and it was nice - and that helps me enjoy the instrument and it's 'aura' [/quote] I can completely relate to this. Even when the problem was resolved (and when I say resolved, the product itself was still not right), I felt no affinity with the completed instrument.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380553226' post='2226974'] 'They don't know what the f*** they want, only when they f***ing want it'. I put some extra sauce on for you mate [/quote] Ooh.... that's made me go all tingly inside.