JTUK

I don't think you have a serious bass problem.... but you need to get a serious bass.

As soon as the drummer gets going...to any degree that you'd want him to... then a sound that is just there is a waste of time. This will rule out most combos under 80-100 watts and tbh, their EQ is likely to be crappy anyway. As for the use you'll put them, I was building 412's at school to gig with in woodwork classes and I did my 1st gig @ 15 so I knew I'd need a good amp and cab. There weren't many good amps so a Selmer tnB and a Vox foundation was my starter... but the H/H thru 2 412's was the benchmark. At least it put out decent volume and bass in a village hall. Of course, gear is much much better these days so you could do ok with smaller kit but the goal was always to gig a local rock band. At 17 I was 'full time' in a well known and regarded function band. 'Full time' meant I didn't need to earn anything else to cover my weekly expenses and I was able to do basic tax returns. It the grand scheme of things, it didn't amount to much but I thought everyone had the same goals.. So, I've always had amps that do the work...some better than others..but I found out what works in what context.

I was joking Dave... I don't have any cabs that I want to sell... and if I did, I would put them up for sale in the classifieds.

Background music..no one is listening so whack them down on an ipod and set it to play. Weddings aren't good at keeping time so just do a random select and forget about it. A lot of effort potentially for 'nothing'

Why would anyone pay £100 for a poor amp/combo just to play at home. A little class D and a cab wouldn't up up any room.. outperform most pratice amps by miles and you could amp it up at a gig and still get reasonable performance. The 60w or less combo has one use.. the bedroom..which is fine if that is all you do, but useless elsewhere, IMO.

Dave, I've got plenty of cabs you can buy,

Buy with confidence from Gareth. Everything is easy and smooth on the deal.

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1437940902' post='2830261'] I think you'd be surprised. Most pros I know would take any gig that pays. [/quote] Depends on 'pro' and pro but get what you mean. Regular jobbing full time guys are scratching around but even so you'd still expect quite a few questions before they get involved. If the band is good, you stand a chance of getting them in... but s*** money and a S*** gig is really scraping the barrel. You don't give these numbers out to everybody...for any gig. There has to be a bottom line and there are easier ways of making money. The function circuit for one...which is dep street these days.

The problem ...potentially... is that the Demeter is very clean. Great balance but very clean so it may not suit all... I'm not a believer in a clean sound then muddying it up with a pedal myself so it is a question of does what you do, work with the amp... I find in some ways it does so that is a plus technically, but it will also force me to articulate differently. That is besides whether it cuts it in the Class D heft 'issue'. Personal opinion is that the TKS S112 cabs and the Demeter are a good match...and totally different from the TH and S112's. So the cabs themselves aren't a one trick pony.

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1437924869' post='2830040'] Take your point re the low powered 10" combos but I am talking about Jam/Open Mics, not sizeable gigs and I used to gig with a LMII/III and a Traveller 210 which is not much different to a 121P.....! [/quote] Understand that, but I couldn't do a gig with a drummer who plays instead of brushes, with a 210/8 ..just not possible for me. I think with the choice of 500w amps, players back off on them a lot and enjoy headroom they never traditionally had...

Don't ask a pro to play those gigs.. see what answer you'll get..!!

I use what I gig ..which is anything from 4 amps from 400w upwards plugged in the gigging cabs

I admire your optimism doing gigs with these units... a 5st thru a single 10 is a tough ask for anything but practice levels. Even a 12" combo is a big sound compromise in that it might be there volume wise just about but a real struggle to get it to work if you are playing anything. My view would you'd be asking it too much questions if you were wanting anything more than bass under the band.

The Ampeg PF breaks up when pushed which is the whole point of it, IMO. That IS Ampeg.

The Demeter is very clean but very balanced ...so any bass that sounds good will work with this amp. What might flag as a problem is your technique or cab choices... I think the key to the amp is the bias switches and atm, the amp is running very clean through TKS S112's which works really well. ...or even a touch too clean. I'll need to work on things a bit but fortunately I'll only need to dull the 'clean' down if I 'prefer' a touch of grit rather than 'having' to. But...the amp IS quality... I think as it stands at the moment I prefer the sound of the Tonehammer, and the Demeter sits the other side of a DB750 which can also be a clean amp, but not overly so. So DB is the default No 1 rig... and then the Demeter if only because of the headroom.. the TH will probably end up surplus as I'll use the Demeter to practice and get to grips with. Liking it so far... just needs more minutes on it.

Not sure about 30 year old speakers tbh... I've been through plenty of ragged 810's and the most polite thing you could say about them is that they sounded somewhat 'tired'.. Where has the cab beed stored..what sort of playing life has it had. Old chassis ..and especially the cheaper ones, were pretty poor to start with... that is why premium brands like JBL, EV, Gauss, got the reputations they did. I'd be interested in the JBL and EV cabs, but not the stock units... You may possibly be able to recone JBL and EV today pretty easily..not so sure about the stock ones..and also..why would you bother..?? The old Ampeg 10's..Marshall 15's etc etc were very low powered and IMO, par for the day.. but those units have been massively been overtaken by recent tech..

Plenty of guys I know wont look beyond a Fender Bassman and a P... How many guys can handle a much cleaner signal anyway.. You want your playing torn apart...?

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1437643310' post='2827740'] For me it's all about the arrangement and the attitude of the players. Any tune can sound tired and hackneyed. Particularly if you've got a five piece playing Rolling Stones covers slavishly to the original. We have a singer who seems to be too keen of saying "Well, we can do it like that, but it's not how they do it in the original." Fill a band full of musicians with that attitde and you'll get the audience you deserve. [/quote] yep.... clones are clones..give me some personality and originality every single time and twice on sundays..

I don't want to play places that I wouldn't ever set foot in. And if wouldn't go there, I can't expect friends or followers to do so either...especially wives or girlfriends. Yes, I'll be very picky..if we travel over 30 mins or so, there will be a fuel surcharge. If I go to London, it is £150 minimum and that will be very very cheap so that will likely be a loss leader type gig.. in that it is a carrot for other gigs. London is really £1500 territory for all the crap involved. The downside to all this is that there are some pubs that are a delight to play for your 5x£50... but the people you want to use aren't going to hold those dates, tbh....so they become a last minute pick-up...which can be fun but you can't really build on that sort of band tbh. Good gigs is my driver... money gigs may be others. If you are starting then £250 is your pub gig fee..unless the pub gets your 'premium'..and it is all about pints anyway, no matter what you think you're worth. £350 is better but you need to do things better and some pubs wouldn't pay it... In that case £250 plus bonus would be a decent position for the pub.

Depends on the definition of dives, but if they are my definition, it's a no... I'm not desperate to play them so I don't.

The problem withy the 58 is that it is indeed a work horse but it is basically 30 years old and things have moved on. The other issue is the chinese fakes that abound and the fact that 58's pick up a lot of noise, so that is one reason why good singers don't like them. They don't want the backline thru their mics.... If you want to pick up the drums..just give the Drummer a 58 to sing thru..and you'll also get his kit So a 58 thru a mixer with bad channel separation which the cheap mixers can be notorious for, and you have a bit of a mess of a sound before you even start. If your vox likes his voice, get him to demo a few alternative mics and see which one suits his voice. I'd expect every vocalist to have done this and know their mic.

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1437636231' post='2827667'] No offence taken at all. Sorry if it sounded like that. I explained it poorly previously. My fault. JTUK- i agree. I think in going the route we are, we are making sacrifices. But again, they're all putting their trust in the engineer. Which is fair enough really. He has 10 years experience of it being his only job. I cant really blame them. Hopefully it'll all work out and i'll be able to get to grips with it relatively quick. [b]A good sound is obviously important, but how important it is to "Joe Public" Do they notice the intricacies, or do they just enjoy the songs aslong as they can hear the singing? I do wonder.....[/b] [/quote] I think they'll notice when it hits them in the face....and is something simple like the tops distort in the high end which is a VERY common problem with band P.A's around here. The vox seem an afterthought to a lot of bands and the first thing I'd not really want to see is old active narrow horn boxes and SM58's all round. This means PV's. Mackies;s and any units that have had a hard life...pretty much. Now, the SM58 is a decent mic but you should know why you are using it and what it will give you. Most very good vocalists ( IMO) that I know, wont use them and they wont do a gig with certain PA boxes.. or rather they'll get caught once and then wont be 'available' again.. In that sense QSC is a decent benchmark.

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1437654218' post='2827882'] Point taken - but[b] there are elements of the thread where people are comparing class-D with Valve amps, not with other class-D amps[/b], which in my opinion (waving it around ) doesn't really get to a conclusion at all. It's (kinda) like Vinyl vs. CD, that's really the point I was trying to make. Perhaps the point of the thread wasn't to arrive at a definitive answer, which is fine. No offence was intended.. [/quote] And that is because if sound is your soul arbiter, those comparisons are relevent. It is not about best lightweight, it is about best sound. I don't know why people can't hear it..maybe they don't want to, maybe they can't ..or maybe it doesn't suit their argument but I'd worry if they really truely were oblivious to it. Having said that, not my problem..lets hope it doesn't become yours...not yours specifically, I mean the players. Of course, some rigs wouldn't rescue some people and their version of sound, no matter what their composite. When I was young, I used an old Selmer TnB... imagine what you would pay for that now..and a Marshall Super lead..and then Hiwatt... and I made all but the Hiwatt sound average or less. Sound City ..?? Sound Sh**y more like..and that is what they were called. Now, I'd make a decent fist out of anyhting IMO... but I wouldn't truely 'love' many of them. But when you come across the DB's...that is when you know.. IME. Another thing is...if you can't play, you are really open to pot luck because you don't know any different...

IMO/IME and in answer to the OP... Good efficient pro gear is separates unless you are in the Meyer league for actives. Cheaper actives are ok for quieter P.A's i,e pub to function bands.as a general rule. Budget actives is Yamaha, and then QSC and if you need more, then there are a few boutiquey namkes but you are into NEXO D&B and Martin which are all separates/passive. This is where the discerning money is.. As for mixers. Behringer, IME..used to be pretty poor and one to avoid like the plague, depending how discerning you were. If they have upped their game, then fair enouigh. PV, Mackie and Behringer all came from the same core parts at one point. Bang for buck, maybe, for a starter.

[quote name='pmjos' timestamp='1437584332' post='2827317'] Oh and I know that Class D amps are not strictly digital.... its only the processing of the input to the mostly Mosfet driver stages......... I really won't bother again....... the techy police will get me. I'll just slip off and burn my degree [/quote] Wouldn't worry about it, tbh.... plenty of people on here get so hung up on a few things and will talk your hind legs off and still have cloth ears, IMO. In a way, it can be quite funny the more you hang around and pick a few things up that aren't generally posted.