JTUK

Depends what you need or want to earn. For the sake of argument, say £25k is the requirement, therefore you need to cover £500 pw, every week. This is the hard realisation. You'll need a single gig paying upwards of £250, probably on the saturday...EVERY saturday. Then you need to get another £250 or the balance from teaching/lessons, gigs and sessions. The function date has largely replaced the session as the biggest contributer, IMO. Functions that pay the band north of £1400 are the gigs that seem to have dropped during these economic times and I know a few guys that would have expected to have 10 or so such gigs by late march..and are down to one. There is no way to recover from that and the earnngs for the year will serverly curtailed. I say £1400 plus gigs, because if you are a professional outfit you will have other costs from the fee and it isn't as simple as a 4 way split as the band will have generally admin and running costs such as Van, P.A service, repairs, website, admin etc etc etc ( the list is long ) It isn't easy .... most guys will need another job/jobs as well which can chip in 10 plus hours per week

Good... proper ports and not those horrible shelve things.. and 18mm Ply and the additional 3.5kgs weight wouldn't worry me either. Just sayin'

I've played 2 CN112's and I liked them quite a bit more than my AE112's. The CN112's sound smoother and appears to get rid or reduce some of the NEO 'harshness' that I hear. We are talking fine lines here and I am not inclined to 'upgrade' but if I was looking for a 212, I'd be comparing the CN212 performance with the DB212. I don't know the GB cab.

Yep...it is a business to most.... all bar a LOT of the bands, who can pretty much make or break the night. It is also about standards.... and I find that people are willing to pay more for something that tries to hit one.

[quote name='Norm' timestamp='1398341386' post='2433114'] To be fair some of the venues try to tailor the bills to some sort of theme/genre, not always successful though. Our last offer from one was a choice of 3 dates, an any genre night, an Indie rock night or a funk/blues night. We are fairly choosy anyway & always try to find out who else is on the bill before we commit. [/quote] An absolute must because if you don't excercise a degree of control from the start, it isn't so likely to appear as the bands priorities are not much considered before anything else.

It isn't always the sound of old strings that kills it...it is the feel of them.

Some good points.... having a consistant them thru the bill is obvious to bands and if it isn't obvious to the promoter then they are in the wrong job. Maybe the promoter is just trying to turn over a buck... and providing they fulfil their obligations...and get ANY ppl in the venue, then they may survive more than a few dates. It is total short termism tho', but then do they or can they care..?? As, in all things you need a working relationship that works for both sides but by the same token these things can't be run on a shoestring. But when they are run on little money, it seems the bands that are the fall-guys. I still think this is because some bands almost invite that situation, but that is a broken record here. If all parties came to the conclusion that a combined effort is a better effort, and if venues didn't have the back-stop option of free bands, then they would have to come up with a better model. Nobody REALLY wants to pay out if they don't have to..?? But venues really should be more forward thinking as they are the ones with the rent and rates commitment which needs to be paid come what may. This is where event organisers have a better hand than they think... as in they can get people to the venue...but this is constantly constantly undermined by acts perfroming free. You aren't really giving the venue/promoter much of a incentive to pay you if you willingly do it for free. I know this is pretty simplistic..and the promise of a gig etc etc waters down the resolve etc etc ...but if councils didn't continually grant licenses for places that were caught out like this, that might help as well..???? And..... by the same token, the acts themselves need to take a look at themselves. Are they worth seeing..?? Oh...and don't get me started on open mic nights...!! These are all versions of a theme for filling up someones off-nights. Seen many open mics on a fri or sat..??

Don't see the point of going with a sound through your rig you don't like ...or even more bizarrely, you can't play with and boxy middly sounds are the worst as they really need you to be very clean to sound ok....if that. Also, you put up with this sound so the mix benefits, but the bass sounds less than good solo'd...so for the 3 piece band, when the gtr goes off on one, you are left with a boxy bass sound being exposed up against the drums. It really shouldn't be beyond anyone to get the bass underpinning the band with a full sound, sitting on top of the kick but below everything else..and the gtr on top of that. But then again, if the Gtr doubles the bass line and you can't hear the bass then it isn't the bass sound that is your problem. Bands with keys get decent band mixes so 3 pieces must be a doddle. The problem is saturating a frequency not the sound itself and if you forced yourself thru a wall of sound, all you have done is won that particular fight... no garauntee it actually sounds good at all.

Decent rooms on decent nights round are offered up at £2k for a sat. That is for a 350 capacity and I assume that includes house P.A and lights, staff and security so on the face on it that doesn't sound that bad. We haven't gone into it deeply and the figures don't work for us...or rather it would be such a stressful time getting to break-even figures that we would rather take a flat fee of £750. So band costs to the venue are around £1100 plus whatever they do for the P.A. We have noticed a downgrade in the P.A provided ( HK instead of EAW ) so I think the venue is taking a short-cut because they think they can plus they are business people and not music people. It is good to throw about a few ideas of what the standards appear to be... We forget that the venues themselves have rent, rates and bills as well...so it is not all about rip-off venues and agents/promoters.

I think the headline act is to be the ones who sell the most tickets and you have to give kudos to the bands who can do that... it isn't easy. That promoter owes you one.... but then again, I would think selling 70 tickets HAS to make you a favourite with thar venue as they know you came up with the goods and delivered. There are a couple of bands round here ( covers, ) who can sell upwards of 300 tickets and no matter what you think of them... that is good going. One of them, did that in 29 hrs, so any sort of CV like that is pretty valuable to promoters. I would think you'd be hearing from them, so you can be a bit more greedy on the deal. But like all these things... you need to hit your marks ( do what you promised/said ) or you blow it.

[quote name='Norm' timestamp='1398266090' post='2432244'] Pound per head gigs are the norm for playing the "name" venues in Bristol. Usually midweek multi band bills of aspiring local bands tagged together into a facebook event. If all 5 acts bring a dozen people it can be a good night & the venue will shift some beer & the bands will get a quid for each punter who has bought an advance ticket (from the bands, promoter gives 20-30 tickets to each band to sell or return) or walk INS on the night who mention your name at the door. Promoter wants all unsold tickets returned or will charge bands per ticket for forgetting them! So get advertising event & promote it & you might get some money to cover petrol but thats about it. You get to play at the "name" venue with stage, lights & big pa & maybe if you bring people & go down well you might get invited back on a better night or to support a touring act there? We do them occasionally for exposure in amongst paying gigs on our own. Most young bands of nippers seem to use them as a free live rehearsal ime. Cheers, Norm [/quote] This was London 20 plus years ago. Places I can recall that ran this were the Mean Fiddler, Orange Club, Ronnie Scott's and some place in Convent Garden...plus all the big name music pub circuit like the Half Moon etc etc You'd start out doing their monday and mid week 'nights' and the thing you had to focus on was that these places needed to 'earn' on these 'off nights' so as long as you could deliver, you could turn the tables somewhat as THEY needed their venue turning over as much as the bands needed the London gig. We never made any proper money but we got a minimum of petrol exes because even back then, we took minimum costs into account. Of course, we have preferred not to pay them, but we had to so getting wise to the way things worked was paramount. So, even back then... money was already in the equation. For good or bad, it was there.

[quote name='topheteatwo' timestamp='1398256114' post='2432093'] I have lived and I have learned hence a quite nastily worded e-mail to the promoter in Sheffield. I always ask for money now and I keep the documents, it was a dumb mistake made by a very young band, we were only 6 months old when we did our first tour and we were still ironing out the creases. [/quote] Sure... we've all done similar, no doubt. The point of making mistakes is to learn from it. So, in that instance..not a totally un-worthwhile experience. Good luck..

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1398250069' post='2432013'] Fair point, though in our situation it can't really go wrong as there is nothing promised and nothing expected because we're happy to effectively waive a fee in return for not having to put in any effort for finding gigs, negotiating terms and policing contracts. That's when it becomes more of a business than a hobby and its a line we don't want to cross. I wouldn't say we pay for the privilege of gigging. Yes, we spend money on gear and a bit of travel and sometimes rehearsal studios, but we'd be doing all of that whether we gigged or not - we all spend money on what we enjoy doing, don't we? Though I'm beginning to take your point that there could be some money for the asking, if only we pushed for it. Hmm. [/quote] Agree..... except that getting the gig takes a car running cost, if only in fuel.... FWIW, we pay for P.A hire, lights, admin ( prints, ink, stamps etc etc ) and we can't put a price on every little thing ... but it is a start. But..look at this from the other side... If a band said to me we would play with you for nothing... the first thing I'd think is 'what is wrong with them'....?? As it happens, we wanted to offer a band better than pub money, ITRO, £400 for an hr plus.. BUT..they had to commit to trying to sell 100 tickets at £8.00 a ticket. Now, on a local level, that is a tough ask, IMO. We had no takers. We'd have been happy if they had chipped with 50 or so ticket sales, in reality.

I'd agree about Wordpress... very easy to get pro looking themes ( free ) and you need minimum code experience.

Sure, Stevie, I have no doubt you could do it with confidence...and some other guys have done it by taking good advice and direction from guys on here who 'know', but I should have quantified why most really need to get advice as it isn't as simple as taking one out and putting another better spec'd driver in without any consideration to the dims and tuning of the host cab. So, I should have made that clearer.

The package should include unlimited e-mail accounts so if that is important to you then pick one that includes that. That list of 'best' rated host sites shows the main selling points of each package. You may want multiple domains but that has a commercial element IMO, so you can go with the hosts that allow 1 free domain...it will be cheaper or the 'baby' option

I agree, ff, it is difficult but I just don't have much sympathy when it goes wrong. I am glad that BRX points out this is less prevalent that it used to be and it can be bypassed or ignored but it takes resolve to do this...and as I say, there will be more and more bands that will continue to do it as they think doing a 'tour'...that actually costs them to do, is worth it. The sad fact is that some venues think they are doing the bands a favour...and therefore the bands should pay for it. In fact, they ARE doing that band a favour letting them play there as without that favour on those terms, bands might have NO chance of playing/getting heard. Now, put that 'power' in the wrong hands and you get the abuse. The only thing you can really do is not be part of it as you will never convince some bands not to take on a 'tour' than doesn't actually pay you. But, the deal is the deal, and you can't stop people making bad ones, but the important lesson here is to get what you agreed and legislate for people trying it on. The only thing I can offer about your situation is... that you are sensible enough to cut your deal and the money doesn't matter and you are prepared to pay for the priveledge. If you'd said £100 to charity, it may have blown the gig and you didn't need to even muddle the waters with that... of course, it happens The OP couldn't as they knew they had costs to cover. Probably the best thing to come out of this thread has been a 'list' and advice of places to play that don't scam.

Most packages will have the e-mail option, Do you mean marketing via mail chimp etc as some can package that as well? [url="http://www.hosting-review.com/uk-b.php?aff_sub=H-R-UK-EN&aff_sub2=uk%2520web%2520hosting&aff_sub3=b&gclid=%7bgclid%7d&gclid=CMK1uuic9r0CFanjwgoddrsAnQ"]http://www.hosting-review.com/uk-b.php?aff_sub=H-R-UK-EN&aff_sub2=uk%2520web%2520hosting&aff_sub3=b&gclid=%7bgclid%7d&gclid=CMK1uuic9r0CFanjwgoddrsAnQ[/url] I've heard good things about 1&1, but favour sites that offer cpanel myself rather their own user admin pack.

2 good sounding tracks. Live they might need a harder edge, for me, but at least you start from a good tune POV with them. I think you could have fun getting these to work for gigs.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1398121738' post='2430767'] That would be interesting! I'd like to see the power section/module tested without the ABM. I don't like super deep low bass. Barefaced cabs can clearly handle it but I find a lot of deep low bass muddies the tone, sounds too 'enveloping' and makes a mess on stage. It's why the 8x10 might be an old/not very efficient design, but the low end is just right for stages. Leave the deep lows to the PA. That's just me. Maybe if I was playing gospel/dub/reggae/ things would be different. ........... [/quote] Ha ha ..you still wouldn't be popular with the stage crew/mon mix engr so the point is very valid IMO. And besides, lots of bass is an absolute tone killer as well, but that aside, I don't have a great deal of time on either TC or Markbass compared to some..but I passed them pretty quickly. I'd expect Markbass to be the better of the two but it depends on the Pacific rim QC and the continued ethic. Soundwise, my feeling is that Markbass flatlines at a loud volume, in a way that I don't really like, and the RH750 pumps it out in a too cultured sound. Not cultured in terms of 'good; sound, but maybe 'processed' is a better word. But..at this price point, they both do well enough and there isn't that much distance between them, IMO. I mean, basically, you are looking at a lightweight head before all else.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1398237739' post='2431844'] Just to expand upon the complexity that Stevie mentioned. there are several ways in which you can 'blow' a speaker. The wattage is based on the speakers ability to withstand the heating effect of lots of watts, The cab isn't part of this so putting in two 500W speakers would give you a 1000W thermal rating for example. But speakers also blow because they try and move too far and leave the safety of the magnetic gap and/or bang against the back of the magnet. People talk about Xmax or excursion limits. Since the cab alters and damps the movement of the cone and each speaker is different the cone will move more in the 'wrong' cab than one designed specifically for it and will blow at a much lower power than its rated power. You wouldn't just drop a different engine with more horsepower into a car and expect the gearbox etc to work properly without modification and sometimes it just wouldn't fit, or be a sensible mod. [/quote] For me, this explains why you only change chassis' when you HAVE to...and it is waaay more than just lining up the bolt holes. If a cab wasn't doing it but worked properly, I'd sell the cab and get a more appropriate one,

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1398198206' post='2431626'] When you say . . . . [i]"Prior to the gig we had agreed to a £20 petrol fee in order to get us from Manchester to Liverpool for the ferry to Dublin and right back up to Belfast and they had humbly agreed to this."[/i] . . . . did you get their agreement in writing? If so, why would you not want to 'name and shame' someone who has clearly broken a contractual agreement in order to help prevent other bands falling victim to this sort of desicable behaviour. If not, er . . . . . at least you now know how much verbal agreements are worth. [/quote] This, I'm afraid.... and this is why there is a persistant argument for not paying for silly money. Don't want to derail the thread but if a constant stream of bands break this 'ethic' then why will people change the habit. Don't be kidded that they are interested in bands or what they play when they treat them like this. It may not always be the promoters fault as such as the venue probably rents them the venue so this is all part of how people get paid. I sympathise with you getting ripped off, but you are perpetuating the state of affairs....as will the next band and the next band.. bla bla......... But...FF's 'lesson' is valid.... get it in writing and don't delete the audit trail...

What are you going to build it in? Some sites have building software that you can install on the host...so you don't have to fly it onto the site as it is already there. I think it better to use a U.K hosted site for when/if the time comes for 24/7 support.

There seems a limit to what you will or wont do. The only other option I can think of is electric upright or you'll have to either sit down or give up.