TimR

[quote]In 1969, The Who released Tommy, (with two contributes from John, "Cousin Kevin" and "Fiddle About", both of which were branded "sick" by the BBC) which put the band firmly in the major league. It also made them all millionaires, which finally allowed John to live the sort of lifestyle he had dreamt about. Once he was able to afford it, one of his passions was collecting bass guitars - at any one time he could have up to 250 of them. This wasn't just a rich man's indulgence - John was always searching for a better tone, and tried every different bass he could get his hands on, trying to find the sound he longed for.[/quote] Shame when so many people search for that "My Generation sound"

[quote]In 1969, The Who released Tommy, (with two contributes from John, "Cousin Kevin" and "Fiddle About", both of which were branded "sick" by the BBC) which put the band firmly in the major league. It also made them all millionaires, which finally allowed John to live the sort of lifestyle he had dreamt about. Once he was able to afford it, one of his passions was collecting bass guitars - at any one time he could have up to 250 of them. This wasn't just a rich man's indulgence - John was always searching for a better tone, and tried every different bass he could get his hands on, trying to find the sound he longed for.[/quote]

[quote name='umph' post='1064065' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:58 PM']i'm bored of these threads, unfortunatly different gear does effect how you sound and unfortunatly punters tend to like it more if it sounds more pleasing to the ears.[/quote] I see you are selling some pickups. Are you one of these people still searching for that elusive "Tone"?

[quote name='silddx' post='1063713' date='Dec 19 2010, 04:58 PM']It seems obvious that some people got a tone they liked easily, maybe because they had little choice of gear, or they were easily pleased, or they thought all basses sound the same, whatever. That's the early days of the electric bass and studio production and live sound reinforcement. Things are infinitely more advanced now and we would be stupid to ignore the possibilities for accurate reproduction of what we hear in our heads. Some players really care about that, some don't, some players heads are full of other stuff they would rather worry about. If you change this thread title to "the FEEL fallacy" and argue that the feel of the instrument, its action and neck dimensions, etc. are a fallacy and we should concentrate on notes, what do you think the response would be?[/quote] The thread is really a thought experiment. Of course tone is important but its qualitative and not quantitative. I thought it would be interesting to see how much emphasis people put into finding "Their tone". Without interviewing famous people at length and asking what lengths they have gone into to get "Their tone" we can only speculate what was in their minds. I found a nice workable tone several years ago, then my gear became outdated and started to be less reliable and there were lighter options around. The balance is then how much effort and money should I invest trying to find "My tone" again? If I play a duff sounding gig do I throw out all my gear and buy a whole load of new stuff? What lengths are people going to modify their tone instead of living with the tone they naturally produce? I've posted what I like, what do other people like and are they happy?

[quote name='Mog' post='1063240' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:24 AM']Theres no way I can agree with the OP, thats right up there with what bass sounds best for metal. The whole 'My Tone' thing is whats makes us individual. Imagine if all basses had that farty Jaco tone or Victors monotone, dynamically dead twang?[/quote] I think you're missing the point of my argument. If we all sounded the same you would be right. I believe there are people out there who are buying this and buying that in some misplaced belief that they going to one day reach that "Tone Nirvana". The point that they've been searching all their lives for. Does this ever happen? So we loved Geddy Lee's Rick sound then we argue whether he used the Rick or whether he had moved to the jazz for a certain record. People on the forum buy 4x10s and then sell them to buy 15s in their search. Its this minutiae that I don't get. A dub sound is dub sound to me. In a live setting I couldn't tell Mr Xs dub sound from Mr Y's dub sound. Not that I listen to dub so maybe that's a bad example. If I hear Harris I know its Harris - does he change his gear every few weeks in an effort to get it closer to what's in his head or did he find a sound that he liked very early in his career and just run with it? What about Jaco, did he try this and that filler for his frets and this and that coating or did he just pull the frets, fill coat the board and think wow that sounds interesting.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1063249' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:33 AM']... The only marketing that gets me is Marmite, As soon as I see an advert for it I crave it on toast! Yum[/quote] Can't stand the stuff Yuck. But illustrates one of my points perfectly. We're all different. Vivre la difference. For each of us the tone comes from different parts of our chain in different proportions. To say the amp is 5% is nonsense. It could be 0%-99% depending who you are. I am not Mark King, Steve Harris, or Fred Smith. Copying their tone or hankering after it is completely pointless unless you are playing in a Level 42, Iron Maiden or Fred Smith and the ToneDeafs tribute act. In which case you'd better get it exactly or the bassists in the crowd at your gigs will have your b***s on a plate. What I'm really getting at is having a sound in your head and chasing it for years is fairly pointless. Listen to what you actually produce and modify it until you are happy, be prepared to change it in a band setting and relax when you're playing live. If you like the SVT buy one but not because it makes you sound like Mr. X, but because its getting you close to that sound in the head. The sound in your head will never be the sound in your ears and certainly never be the sound in your audiences ears. Short fingernails, round wound strings, rosewood fingerboard, PJ pickups and transparent amp is what gets me close. EQ on the amp can help get the message through a crowded band mix and dodgy room acoustics. Not always, but sometimes you just have to live with what you have.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1062775' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:00 PM']Your tone is determined by the way you play. There is note choices and timing, but would you recognise a dude from their stuff being played on a keyboard? I once read that tone is 85% fingers 10% bass and 5% rig, and it has stood up pretty well. Of course, volume is 100% rig, and that is the important bit for me.[/quote] OK, this is close to my thinking. I don't think that your note choices and timing are anything to do with tone. They're style. Style and tone may define your "sound". I believe that the bass is a lot more than 10% but the 5% for the rig is probably close although the rig part is pretty essential component in the final chain. I think that a lot of rigs are transparent enough that if you are producing a good tone from the bass you don't have to worry too much about the rig. I spent 7 years looking for a bass that was right for me. Most of this searching was to find fingerboard width and weight, but there was a strong influence on fingerboard type and pickup type. If I knew then what I knew now I would have build one myself. The point I'm trying to make is who is it that actually listens to your tone. I've had compliments from other players (which makes me feel all warm inside - awww shucks guys you're too kind ) but I've also been surprised at how at some gigs I've just been happy to play with whatever sounds happens to come out of the amp when I turn it on. Other gigs I've twiddled madly with knobs all night trying to get something useable out of my normal gear. The band leader's has asked me at the end whether I was having problems and then said it sounded OK to him.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1062777' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:01 PM']This one line defeats your whole post! ...[/quote] Isn't being human great You can hold two completly opposing views at the same time and be happy with them. Hopefully I won't now spend the next two days trying to explain myself on the Internet.

There are things we know about human biology and psyche. We know that people see colours differently, people appreciate different paintings and women can discriminate more colours than men, some people are colour blind. We know people like different foods and have different tastes, some can stand very hot chillies others only like beef and Yorkshire pudding. We also know that people hear differently, some people have different levels of deafness, we all like different tunes, some people have perfect pitch and others are tone deaf. Women listen to the words/singer, men listen to the music. Drummers listen to the drums, bassists listen to the bass, the best musicians can hear the whole band at once. So why the obsession with 'my tone'? You are the only one who hears it that way. You can't describe it in words to a sound-man. No measuring equipment in the world can measure it to reproduce it. The environment plays a huge part in its reproduction so it doesn't matter how much you spend on your gear when you walk into that dodgy pub with the low beams it just won't work. Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes. Or am I alone here.

Ideally your PA should be totally transparent and the sound of your bass should be the same through the PA as it is from your cabs. There are several reasons why this doesn't always work. 1). Band PA is not always what you need - It would be great to have and expensive mixer and pre-amps and arrays of parametric EQ with thousands of watts of power and fantastic subs. In reality you have a pair of 12" or 15" speakers owned by the singer with a Behringer poweramp and mixer. 2). Soundman is not always your best friend - ideally you have your own who knows what you are supposed to sound like. Alternatively the venue soundman listens to your band playing and talks to you before even touching his PA and learns very quickly what you want. In reality you get someone who is only interested in turning the system up to 1.1 gigawatts to show it off. 3). Bands don't have producers - Someone who listens to your tracks and says OK I know you like that fill there, or you like that bass tone, but guys - it's just doesn't work live. There are many others but you get the idea.

If 4x10 volume is fine, why not just get 2 2x10s and stack them vertically. Similar volume might give you more presence.

I don't think that the 2x10 and the 4x10 can have the same drivers in them - the sonic results are going to be very unpredictable. I've mixed lots of different cabs, some work some don't. You'll be fine running a larger power amp into smaller speakers. If you get distortion from the speakers back off the volume and don't EVER lend your rig to someone who doesn't understand this. I think (from fag packet workings) that you will be limited to 400watts total (200W+200W) As has already been said the power will be equally split. This is less than the 500W you could get from the 4x10 on its own. The 200W, 500W etc don't really have a lot of bearing on anything other than they give an indication of what you [b]can't[/b] do electrically rather than how loud it will be or what the resulting sound will be like. If its dispersion you are after, consider taking a line or Di out from your amp to the PA and EQ all the bass out of this DI.

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1050050' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:29 PM']... Regarding the 'order' of loudness of instruments, this makes absolutely no sense to a sound engineer whether you're talking about live or recorded. You're not all producing the loudest part of your signal at the same time - live, the drums will always be way louder than anything else at their peak but that lasts a fraction of a second each beat, in between is when you hear the guitar etc. Plus you can have multiple sounds all loudest at different frequencies - the ability of ears to separate out different frequency sounds is why we can enjoy polyphonic music! ...[/quote] It does. The vocals need to be heard and need to be louder, they're in the same frequency range as the guitars. Essentially, what you are talking about is mostly down to arrangements. Whether you are talking louder across the spectrum or just louder in the characteristic frequencies for that voice/instrument. A mix where every instrument is the same volume will sound bland and uninteresting. It is down to each performer to know when to play loudly and when to play quietly. Individual dynamics and group dynamics are what makes the music come alive. Equally a band where every musician is throwing in fancy licks and frills at every opportunity is tiring. I stopped playing in bands like that 15 years ago, but I still see bands playing like that. Simply blasting the audience with everything at the same volume won't work. If the guitarist is using the band as a vehicle to show off his talents and the band are happy with that then no problem, turn down and stick around for the ride. If not then the whole band need to have a word.

The only problem with starting with the drums is that if the venue isn't big enough the band will quickly get too loud for the room. The guitarist is almost right. Start with the vocals then add the guitars so that they are loud but the vocals are still inteilligble. This may mean adding more treble to the vocals to cut through. Then add the bass. You may have to sacrifice the tone that you have at home but you need to 'scuplt' your tone to fit with the guitars. Then the drummer has to play at the right volume to balance it all out. If at any point you start to lose the vocals, turn everything else down. It's a band not a competition on who can be heard and who is loudest. When the guitar boosts for a solo he should just come up 3 or 4 dB so that he can be heard. Remember girls listen to the words, blokes listen to the music.

Train someone up on the basics of how to adjust levels and learn frequencies to eliminate feedback and get instruments to sit in the mix. Set the PA up for them. As the band get more experience they will learn that what they hear in the monitors sometimes ranges from absolute rubbish to excellent depending on the stage acoustics (NOT the PA). They'll learn how to cope and deal with it. However it's important for them to be able to trust what is coming out of the front is sounding good. Someone behind a desk smiling and fading up lead vocals and guitar solos is what you need. If you start getting feedback from the drum mics you are going to be banjaxed as you'll never sort that while trying to play the bass. If the band is inexperienced and you get a bad monitor mix there will be all sorts of arguments - either during the sound check (BAD) or after the show. If you are running the mixer you will bear the brunt of this.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1031444' date='Nov 21 2010, 02:54 PM']I've farted out 8x10s. They don't like lows. Lesson is: Never use one 8x10.[/quote] Sealed or ported?

[quote name='Conan' post='1031383' date='Nov 21 2010, 01:44 PM']I may be wrong here, but isn't the decibel scale logarithmic? Meaning that an increase in 10dB makes a sound 10 times louder? In which case, would 6-7 dB be a huge increase in perceived volume? If I'm wrong of course, please ignore this b0ll0cks!! [/quote] 3dB is double the SPL. 10dB is consdiered double the apparent volume, but subjective. The numbers are meaningless as it depends on the frequencies.

Bill, you've really surprised me with that answer. I'm going with 6-7dB using comparable cabs from the same manufacturer. I suppose an experiment could be carried out with 4 2x10"s arranged in 2 1x4 speaker configurations. ie 2 vertical stacks of 2 2x10" next to each other and unplugging one pair to A-B the sound. My guess is that the 6-7dB won't be that noticeable for most people. How many people use an 8x10" at full power?

[quote name='stevie' post='1027946' date='Nov 18 2010, 02:19 PM']... I’ve nothing against stacking speakers myself. It gets the top one closer to ear height as Thom mentioned a while ago, and this is the main benefit of the configuration. However, as Protium also pointed out, the seven foot tall 8 x 10 highlights the shortcomings of insisting on a vertical layout no matter what. What counts is what works.[/quote] How loud does an 8x10 'sound' compared to a 4x10 vertical stack?

PeteAcademy would probably be able to help you. PM him.

The problem is that you are then tied to always using that bass and amp combination. Any new amp will need to be modded and you can't take that bass to a jam or use another band's, venue's or practice studio's amps with your bass, unless you keep the 1/4" as well and your bass can run without the pre-amp. If you're talking about proper phantom then just use a standard 3pin XLR, put in a DC/DC converter chip inside the bass to drop the voltage to 9v and the jobs done. But then you're still tied to using a mixer with a phantom supply. Although yopu can get stand alone phantom supplies that would work as I describe above. It won't matter if someone plugs a mic in then. DMX and XLR is always an issue anyway so just be careful like everyone else has to be. I'll maintain the most simple solution is rechargeable batteries and an easily open-able battery compartment, rather than the 5 screws I have on my bass.

I wouldn't mod the amp. I would build a box to sit on the amp that provided the 9v and had two 1/4" sockets. One a stereo (TRS) and one a mono. The mono to go to your amp and the TRS to go to your bass. Then you can simply modify your bass wiring so that the existing socket recieves the power instead of just switching it. Which is just linking out the battery on some basses. You can just use a normal stereo lead then. But what is the problem with batteries?

I thought about this a long time ago. The only 'problem' with batteries I can think of is it's difficult to change the battery. Why not get one of these: [url="http://www.allparts.com/Battery-Compartment-p/ep-0929-023.htm"]http://www.allparts.com/Battery-Compartmen...ep-0929-023.htm[/url]

It depends very much on what else I was going to be doing there. Networking and making useful contacts? Are you going to drive there, get out of the car, walk onto stage, play then get in your car and drive home? Are you going to have to turn up at mid-day and wait until 11pm to play? How productively can you use the time you are not playing? Would you have time to visit local venues and check the area for other gigs? Stay overnight and do a bigger gig the next night? No I wouldn't drive for 3 hours to play 3 songs unless it was for TV or similar. Although when I used to compete in a brass band we would drive to France, Germany and Holland and spend hundreds of pounds effectively just to play for 15 minutes. However, that was never the total aim of the trip, we would add practices in and concerts and it was a generally good week of socialising and meeting new people .

[quote name='gafbass02' post='1023535' date='Nov 14 2010, 04:00 PM']... After a bit this mahoosive black dude looms over me and drawls in my ear in a deep US accent. "That's some incredible bass man, I used to play for 25 years and boy, you play like Jaco!" ...[/quote] You do know Jaco is dead? It's nice to receive a compliment and they cost nothing to give. I give them out when I think someone's played what's needed. If they haven't - I don't. It's usually quite puzzling when someone comes up to you and says how much they've enjoyed it when you know you haven't played your best. I always try to put it into perspective: If they're not a musician what we do is awe inspiring, no matter how well or badly we've done it. Thank them for the compliment. You've worked at something for years and deserve a bit of praise just for doing that. If they are a bass player we have no idea how good a bass player they are and they've no idea whether what you played was kept simple because that's your interpretation of what was required or whether you can't play anything more technical Sometimes they're just being friendly, get them to buy you a drink.