TimR

I'm considering getting some boxing gloves. I think they will definitely improve my playing but I'm concerned that they would affect my tone.

Our guitarists have these. Clip on I'm afraid but can be powered by adaptor. [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mighty-Bright-Light-Duet/dp/1935009095/ref=pd_cp_MI_3"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mighty-Bright-Ligh.../ref=pd_cp_MI_3[/url]

AM1 posted on the Depression thread last night.

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1005612' date='Oct 29 2010, 06:51 PM']A priceless comment from our drummer at rehearsal last night when asked to set the right time by providing a lead-in using the kick drum: "[i]I don't usually use the bass drum[/i]". The ensuing silence was no doubt the combined diplomatic restraint of the rest of us resisting the temptation to shout "[i]yes, we know, that's the f*cking problem[/i]". Oh dear - bands and mates. Can the two ever happily coexist?[/quote] Is this the same drummer you wrote about that had no stamina?

[quote name='chris_b' post='1002873' date='Oct 27 2010, 07:04 PM']I meant that what you play can change but how you play shouldn't need to. You always have to play the right stuff, but harmony can be part of the groove. Kenny Gradney doesn't alter what he plays if Little Feat add the TOP horns and Francis Rocco Prestia plays exactly the same in TOP as he does on his solo album, which hardly has any horns on at all. Duck Dunn's style doesn't change when he's in the MG's or behind the full Stax show. Tommy Shannon just grooves behind Stevie Ray Vaughn. As you said, it really is a case of "quality over quantity every time".[/quote] In those cases they're playing mainly groove orientated funk. Where the guitars, keys and brass are playing padding and the drums and bass are driving the band. It's all in the arrangement and different genres require different approaches. We find in a 5 piece that it is not impossible to play a pop tune that is originally played by a three piece with an additional guitar, the extra guitar just has to be careful what they play and the bass can still play the original bass line in most tunes. I think where it gets difficult is when you go the other way. What happens when you play a tune in a three piece that is well known as a big band (7+) piece. As the OP suggests, it's really good to play in lots of different scenarios and use your ears so that you don't get into a fixed mind set of what the bass player is and does.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1002767' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:36 PM']You've mainly got to work with the drummer. The number of people who are bolted on the front of the rhythm section doesn't change how that works. So a 3 or 10 piece band shouldn't make any difference to the bass. Then it's everyone else's job to work with you. It's my objective to push the rhythm section forward in the band mix. I know every element is important but the groove “top trumps” the rest of the band in my opinion.[/quote] I think if you play the same way with 3 as you do with 10 then you're definitely missing something musically. In a 3 piece you'll often need to add to the harmony as well not just stick to the bass and groove. If you try to add to harmony in a 10 piece you're going to get fed up when no one can hear your bass line or the keyboard player appears to be stamping all over your line.

[quote name='Marvin' post='1002733' date='Oct 27 2010, 05:19 PM']I may be talking rubbish but it's a bit harder work with only one guitarist. People can actually hear you and with my playing that's the last thing people need. Best for me if I'm hidden a little.[/quote] Well its actually a lot easier because you only have to listen to two people. It may be harder in the respect that you may have to play more but that's not always true. There are a lot of bass players who play far too much in an effort to fill sonic space that doesn't actually need to be filled. Quality over quantity every time.

Its all in the arrangement. If you can find 2 guitarists who understand this then you are on to a winner. I've been playing in a 5 piece for just over a year now and have managed to get them to tweak almost every song in their/our repertoire so that they're not both chugging away at the same chords with (almost ) the same rhythm. If the guitarists don't get the fact that even though they're playing the same instrument they're are supposed to be playing different parts then you have a hard job. Even harder if you find one of them is also trying to add bass notes to their chords to "fatten" up the sound. I've played in trios and all sorts of combinations up to nine piece bands and a large 70 piece concert band with 12+ parts. It's the same whether it's a three piece or a twenty-three piece: If the other musicians are not listening to each other it's not a band, its a group of soloists.

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='993572' date='Oct 19 2010, 02:24 PM']Any tips on how to acliatise to playing with plugs? I'm sure the ER20's are up to the job. I just can't deal with the change in what I'm hearing. I guess the bits I listen out for with the drummer and the guitarist aren't as easy to pick up on as without plugs.[/quote] I've got the ER20s. I can't tell the difference between them in or out other than the volume.

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='993138' date='Oct 19 2010, 08:38 AM']I just want to point out an error a few people are making. The worst damage you can do to your ears is constant noise. A drummer rim shotting a snare, though it may hurt more than a guitarist playing loudly, it'll do less damage because it's not constant. I have pretty bad tinnitus, when I was a kid I used to go to big gigs and would stand right in front of PA speakers, never wore earplugs. I'm paying for it now (at 25). I ALWAYS try and take earplugs. Very rarely I forget them. I do have full hearing range and for stuff like mixing, I can still do an alright job. I do find it harder hearing high-pitched noises though, though that's more because it mingles with the tinnitus than because it's not there.[/quote] Be careful here. Less damage? It's time AND volume related. Where did you get your hearing range checked? Check my post on the ear plug sticky here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=533&view=findpost&p=958996"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&sho...st&p=958996[/url] and the Deafness Reasearch page on Tinnitus hre: [url="http://www.deafnessresearch.org.uk/1925/about-tinnitus/what-is-tinnitus.html"]http://www.deafnessresearch.org.uk/1925/ab...s-tinnitus.html[/url]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='992156' date='Oct 18 2010, 12:53 PM']I've always used ER20s (the conical rubber, christmas tree types) but my band members were saying the ER25s just make everything quieter rather than cut out all the energy-driven high mids. I'll post a comparison between the ER20s (not moulded) and the ER25s (moulded) when I get them but it could be 4 weeks! Dan[/quote] [url="http://www.etymotic.com/pdf/erme-brochure.pdf"]http://www.etymotic.com/pdf/erme-brochure.pdf[/url] The difference between the 15, 20 and 25 is that the 20s are not custom fit. Each one drops the sound level by 15dB ,20dB and 25dB flat (or flat as is possible) across the frequency range. If you play a wind instrument or sing the sound gets transmitted inside your head through your bones, bounces around the back of the plug and sounds 'funny'. The custom moulded ones have vents to stop this happening.

[quote name='tauzero' post='990835' date='Oct 17 2010, 02:43 AM'].....any perching of beer on top of it would be immediately corrected...[/quote] I played with a drummer who did this. Once. I put his beer on his floor tom. He got the message.

It's all about being immersed in a style of music. Eg. If you've spent all your life listening to rock but never listened to regae then you're going to struggle and vice-versa. To play a style convincingly you need to be conversant with the relevant nuances and this will probably mean listenenig and playing to hours of different examples. You could probably fake your way through one or two rock songs but gig after gig and picking up new tunes quickly? Doesn't this come down to the old 'feel' argument?

I struggled with a keys player where both of us were over using gliss. Quite often he would play a gliss half a beat behind me. I suggested only one of us play them but I didn't mind who. He said I should play them but then continued to play them. Very frustrating. The answer? Record the sessions and listen to them back first on your own then with the rest of the band. First, make sure you are not imagining things and that it is not you who are overplaying. After listening to one song I very quickly came to the conclusion that we were both playing too many gliss. Again less is more. Just because there is a space in the music you don't always have to fill it. Something that's often hard to get through to novice drummers. Then when I played the recording to the band they all agreed that there was too much going on in a lot of the songs and we [b]ALL[/b] simplified our parts which gave a much more powerful and cleaner sound. (apart from the bonehead drummer - but that's another story completely )

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='989745' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:37 PM']Yep (sorry cars again!) but theres an old chap near me that does tuning on all the old classic cars by ear just like a musician and they run sweet as a nut. Experience of knowing what he is listening for just the same as playing in a band IMO.[/quote] Indeed there are mechanics who tinker with old cars but there are engineers who design jet engines. A drummer friend of mine told me if I wanted to look at some complex theory based music I should listen to Metallica. WTF? I was listening to Metallica before he was born, I nearly fell of my stool. There have been many instances where classical players can't swing and where one musician has been chosen over another because of style. As far as I'm concerned it is an art. Some prefer watercolours, some oils. I've studied a lot of theory and know how to write down the pop songs so that I can play them and so that my keyboard player knows what's going on. Usually my charts involve a mixture of traditional staff notation and chord charts. I'm surprised that a music college doesn't have a huge amount of performance based coursework and that musicians can pass courses without being able to perform in a group situation. I know that Middlesex University does a number of music related courses, I played with a really good drummer whose second instrument was piano. He knew more theory than anyone else I've ever met, and he was under 20 years old, but his course was Jazz and I never heard him play anything else. Maybe the problem with the OP is that the musicians he is playing with have come from a specific course that is not related to the style of music he is playing?

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='989754' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:41 PM']I had it happen a couple of times back in the late 90s, raised the issue & the parts were changed. I was amazed nobody else in the band picked up on it because we were really clashing[/quote] I sometimes get the feeling that the bass player is the only one who listenes to the whole band. Everyone else seems to listen for cues but doesn't listen to how their contribution is fitting in.

[quote name='risingson' post='989753' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:39 PM']I got taught in quaters eights and sixteenths, most jazz players talk like this also on both sides of the pond.[/quote] Yes, my kids are learning that way. A quarter is a crotchet.

Yes. Big common problem. Get them to play pad chords or work with them to come up with something that works. Most keyboad/piano players are clasically trained and used to playing two parts. Less is more.

[quote name='TimR' post='989729' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:30 PM']... It's like doing an engineering degree knowing how to strip down and rebuild an engine but not being able to read the manual or write a report afterwards..[/quote] There are plenty of engineers who can strip and rebuild engines following the manual, but the best ones are those that have read the manual, understand how the engine works and can build a better one to fit your needs, and write a manual for it.

[quote name='skej21' post='989721' date='Oct 15 2010, 10:23 PM']Totally agree. That's why I urge my students to master as many areas as possible. There's a preconception that classical musicians can only read, and pop musicians can only busk, but as musicians we should master at LEAST both of these skills. I hate the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none", or "one trick pony"... Musicians shouldn't happily accept such stereotypes and should aspire (and be encouraged to aspire by their tutors) to master a range of fundamental skills, such as playing by ear/feel, reading, music theory and composition.[/quote] I see where you are coming from now. Your earlier post was badly worded. Basing course entry purely on classical gradings is bad but do you want to be on a course where people are being taught what a quarter note is during their first lesson? Its a filter process to make sure that the musicians reach a prerequisite. Pop music IS full of theory and if you are going to write it during the course and hand it in to be marked you're going to need to know a fair bit of theory. It's like doing an engineering degree knowing how to strip down and rebuild an engine but not being able to read the manual or write a report afterwards..

[quote name='risingson' post='989682' date='Oct 15 2010, 09:33 PM'].... the theoretical side of graded exams has no bearing on popular music as it stands whatsoever. ....[/quote] What do you base this observation on? What theory grade have you studied to?

[quote name='Spike Vincent' post='989552' date='Oct 15 2010, 06:56 PM']In those cases the bassline was considered the melody,and if it's the original copyrighted recording that's sampled then that's another HUGE can of copyright worms.And totally off topic.[/quote] That's what I thought and it wasn't Queen who sued, it was Mercury, Taylor, Deacon, May, & Bowie who are all named as having the rights to the song. It was settled out of court and one of the early cases involving sampling. Which is where I was going really. As bass players are you being included in the writing credits? Does your band have a formal agreement? Do you think it's necessary?

[quote name='Delberthot' post='988739' date='Oct 15 2010, 01:48 AM']Geezer Butler wrote most, if not all, of the lyrics for Black Sabbath[/quote] Yes, I'm sure there are loads of examples. Neal Peart writes the lyrics for Rush. I would guess without googling that M*rk K*ing and Sting write a fair amount of their music too. It's not uncommon, most bands are performing music written by someone else, even if that person has never sung or recorded the song before. I think all the Spice Girls stuff was written by someone else but they insisted that they were all credited as well. A smart move! In one band I was in we had a friend who wasn't in the band who used to give us lyrics/poems that we would set to music. I'm just interested because in the cover band thread I few people were saying that they would rather perform their own material than someone else's. As I understand it only the lyrics and melody are copyrightable. If you're only coming up with a bass line are you actually performing your own material? Loz said his singer wrote the words which seemed like a cop out, but he's probably creating 90% of the song words and melody, even though someone else is coming up with riffs and chord structures. I'm wondering how you have all agreed to split the royalties and songwriting credits if you ever became famous. Bilbo, technically you're not in a band if you are writing stuff at home for yourself that never gets performed. Or do you have friends that come round and you just play to yourselves, which is still technically performing. Have you thought of giving the music to a band to perform.

In the case where everyone writes different parts do you keep a note of who has written what?

Ok so the Coverband thread is getting long and I think the point is getting missed. How many of you as bass players actually have any input into your originals band songs other than helping with the arrangement by coming up with a nice bass line. Pual McCartney is a good example of a good song writer who also played bass. It's not meant to be a contentious issue but I'm sure it will become one. Really I'm just interested.