Misdee

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1479511610' post='3177239'] They are expensive, but they are incredibly well built now. Believe me, compare the basses that were built in the early 00's with the ones being built today and they are worlds apart. In my (rather extended) experience, the current Warwick builds are the best they have every built as a company. The build quality of my 2013 Streamer was notably better than the dozen or so eighties/early nineties Warwick basses I have been through. The difficulty is they used to be cheaper, which makes them seem so expensive now. Ultimately though, their workshop will be very similar to other high end bass builders. Take Dingwall for example, they are not dissimilar in cost, but you rarely see as much bleating about Dingwall prices. The so called 'masterbuilt' basses are built using top end machinery in a workshop that only produces 250 or so instruments a year. [/quote] I take your point entirely, if you want top quality you have to pay accordingly. Nothing wrong with that. My last point of reference is the early 2000's era Warwicks when they went over to the rather fat ovankol necks, and the overall quality seemed to have dropped a bit. I used to play them in Academy of Sound and Sound Control around that time. By comparison the late '80's to mid '90's Warwicks were wicked basses. I'm basically a Fender guy and not into hi-fi exotic wood basses, but Warwicks have a more gutsy sound than most of those kind of basses. The wood really seems to make a difference. If you have played the more recent basses and they are of superior quality to any previous ones, then fair enough. I still think they are somewhat over-priced, recent fluctuation in the exchange rate not withstanding. Bear in mind that Warwick basses in the UK still benefit from the Single Market, a generally favourable exchange rate and relatively close proximity to the UK. Dingwall and other basses made in North America do not enjoy these advantages.

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1479391223' post='3176184'] Having just been through the process of buying my dream Warwick, I am all too familiar with their pricing and manufacturing options. Back in the good old days Warwicks were all made in the German factory and you could pick your extras, like hardware colour, for free. These are now effectively classed as Custom Shop and Masterbuilt - in practice there is no difference between the two options other than whether you take the standard spec (Masterbuilt) or ask for a tweak or two (Custom Shop). These are only made to order - some shops will order them, but they are scarily expensive, bit like the Gibson Custom Shop. Warwick lean on them being made by experienced luthiers - I have no idea if this is a true distinction, and again, it's something that Gibson have been doing of late to justify high prices. They then have the Teambuilt/Pro option, which used to be made in the Czech factory and finished in Germany but that is now back in Germany, albeit at a separate factory, so they can legitimately say are made in Germany, albeit "overseen" by the luthiers that make the Masterbuilt/Custom Shop ones rather than made by them. Standard specs only, and what is noticeable is that they quite often use different woods to the Masterbuilt models, and have a limited range of models. they are, however, about half the cost of a Masterbuilt - more in line with the Warwicks from the good old days. these are more widely available, but still not a huge amount of stockists. There is then the Rockbass, which are made in China and now badged as a Warwick. Again, a limited range of models, but a third of the price of a Teambuilt. These are most of the "Warwicks" that you'll see in shops. For a full run down of which workshop makes which basses: [url="http://shop.warwick.de/?&lang=en&modul=shop_new&site=shop_overview&&ctree=D0746768001321517432A47035|D0780229001321517432A47059"]http://shop.warwick....321517432A47059[/url] As others have commented, the second hand price for original German built Warwicks is ridiculously low, basically a similar price to a new Rockbass...my feelings on this may have been significantly affected by my selling a couple of old ones to help finance my Custom Shop purchase. With the re-badging of Rockbasses as Warwick's I'd be very careful about any second hand purchase, although the Rockbasses I've tried have been fine, but I'd have been very annoyed if I thought I was buying a German one and it turned out that it wasn't. I've also heard about them being a very difficult company for shops to deal with - I remember having to wait weeks for my first Streamer JazzMan, with GAK being the only place in the UK that had a confirmed order, and they'd been waiting some weeks beyond the original delivery date for it to show up. they told me that despite having the order confirmed, they had to wait for the boxes to arrive and open them up to see what they'd been sent that week. I had a similar response when buying another one from Thomann, that they had a confirmed order but could only tell me when they had been told to expect it, which from experience was no guarantee that it would arrive on that date. the shame is that unlike, say ten or fifteen years ago, you can't find a shop that has a decent range of the German made basses to try out and see what you want - I first came across them when looking for an active five string in Denmark Street, and the Bass Cellar had the whole range (albeit that they didn't have the model that I wanted in a five string - hence my dealings with GAK). If I did the same today I don't think I'd be going for a new Warwick, just because I wouldn't be able to find anybody that had the whole range for me to try. But for all that...they are great basses. Though having just spunked a huge amount of cash for one I would say that wouldn't i? [/quote] Thanks for clarifying the various manufacturing options that Warwick are currently offering. I had been a bit confused up to now as to what actually constituted a proper German-made Warwick nowadays. So essentially, what Warwick are now calling a Masterbuilt / Custom Shop bass is what I would call "a Warwick". I too remember when that's how they all were, and they didn't cost anything like the equivalent of what they do now. To make an analogy, they are asking Rolls Royce money for a Volkswagen, if you follow my drift. Volkswagen are great cars, and Warwicks are great basses but you pays your money and you takes your choice. I can't imagine too many punters in the UK will be stumping up between four and six and a half grand for a Warwick bass. It's a classic case of being priced out of the market. In the interest of balance, it has to be said that whoever owns Warwick is a business man not an altruist. I'm sure he knows what he is doing in terms of making a profit, and he is not under any onus to make his basses "affordable" . Over the years I've seen Warwick grow from being just another little independent bass-maker to what must be one of the biggest guitar companies in Europe, so in commercial terms he must be doing something right!

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1479338147' post='3175858'] I suspect there are lots of people playing Warwick basses - just not that many who come on forums and talk about them a lot. In fact I've bumped into quite a few enthusiastic Warwick players. They are a great instrument using quality components and construction and they have their own signature tone. If you can get them for that price used then that's absolutely ludicrous when you consider some if the other stuff you could get for that price, some of which would be distinctly ubiquitous and decidedly average in comparison. Their upper range standard basses are easily in a par with Fender Custom Shop, as are Musicman, US Lakland and G and L - all of which quite wrongly get compared with the more run of the mill US basses. I would not be deterred from buying a new Warwick if that's what I wanted - I'm pretty sure I'd be satisfied by what I received. There is a certain view on this forum that 'getting a used bargain' is somehow better than buying a brand new instrument - as someone who has done both, I have to say ordering and buying a brand new instrument is a great experience and gives a lot of pleasure which, for me, is usually beyond buying a used bargain. I have only once bought a used Musicman which has given me anywhere near the pleasure of those I've bought new - for those that have experienced it, it has some parallels with buying and bonding with a new car. I have no worry about the depreciation on basses - and with Brexit and other political lunatics about, such is the economic situation that there ain't too much depreciation anyway!! For those who live for the used bargain, if that's what floats your boat then that's great. A new Warwick would be quite a pleasure! I would find someone with some in stock and make a trip to try out - then maybe order what you want. [/quote] I don't disagree with what you say about the merits and pleasures of buying a brand new bass, but I can't help but think that full-tilt German-made Warwick basses are a special case in so much as in recent years they have become grotesquely over-priced. Don't get me wrong they are lovely basses - I'd love to buy a sunburst hollow body Star Bass, same as the one Lee Sklar plays - but the German basses are currently weighing in at between just over four grand and rising to close to six with options that used to be standard on basses that retail for between one and two grand in the UK not all that long ago. It seems to me that the ordinary consumer is being asked to pay for Warwick's extensive worldwide network of endorsements. They are good basses, but there is nothing about them that elevates them to that retail level. They are essentially factory- made guitars.

Fret size is something I too have been thinking about lately, essentially for the same reasons as the O.P. My main bass is a USA Lakland PJ with a Jazz Bass neck and vintage frets. The bass plays with incredibly low action and very little relief in the neck. The problem is that the "feel" of playing this bass is very different from my Fenders with bigger size fret wire. It almost feels like a fretless in comparison. Even though the measured action on the Lakland is substantially lower than the Fenders, somehow it feels higher despite being effortless to play, if that makes sense!

I think, as others have alluded to, the quite frankly insane pricing of new German-made Warwick basses has a lot to do with why they have all but disappeared from the UK retail scene compared with say, twenty years ago. In addition to that, though, Warwick are, according to some, a very difficult company for British retailers to deal with. Funnily enough, I remember being at the Bass Centre at Wapping one day back in the early 1990's and a number of the staff, including,I think, the owner, were having an animated discussion about a big falling-out they were currently having with Warwick, for whom they were the UK distributors. So maybe they have a history of being, let us say, individually-minded.

I've been thinking about Wal basses quite a lot lately. I'm of an age where I can remember when they first came out and rapidly became one of [i]the[/i] basses to have for serious players. I remember trying them in shops and being wowed by the sheer power of their basic tone, and the flexibility of the electronics. They were always very special instruments. Since the recent fall in the exchange rate, I've been casting my eye over British-made basses in search of better value for my money than imported basses can offer under the current circumstances. The problem is, with the exception of Wal and Status Graphite, no British builders have any allure for me. And what I can't help but notice is that Wal basses are now proportionately much more expensive than they used to be. In fact, even allowing for inflation, a Mk1 Wal now costs two and a half times as much as one in their heyday of the 1980's. Interestingly enough, in contrast, back in the 1980's, a Status Series 2 bass was substantially more expensive than a Mk 1 Wal. However, the current version of that Status retails for several thousand pounds less than a new Wal. I cannot help but wonder in my idle moments why Status have been able to curtail their pricing whilst Wal have not. I suspect that the new-found cachet that Wal basses have recently been enjoying, for various reasons, plays a big part. The fellow who now makes them can charge whatever he likes and still have a full order-book. Good luck to him, they are fabulous basses, and that is the way of the world. Very limited supply and high demand puts him in a commanding position. From my own point of view, though, much as I would love a Wal bass (and for me it would have to be the classic Mk1 shape) I would balk at the prospect of paying just shy of five grand for one. For me, as someone who remembers the 1980s as if it were yesterday, it's just not a five grand bass.

I can vividly remember seeing Bruce Foxton playing live with the Jam around 1979 playing a black/maple Precision that sounded even more growly than his Rickenbacker. Great player, great tone.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1475235635' post='3144255'] IME all basses sound essentially the same in a given style of music once they have been tweaked to sit properly in the mix. [/quote] I have heard top record producers say exactly this, and that the only real difference is whether the bass has new strings on or not. Similarly to previous posters, I have got a "boutique" Fender-style bass (Lakland USA PJ with a Jazz neck) but my USA Fender basses get far more playing time and are my automatic choice. My 2012 Am St Jazz Bass with CS pickups, for example, sounds so good and is so versatile that it meets all my needs for any style of music. A good Fender bass (and let's face it, with Fender you do get some dogs at every price point) has got a gutsy sound that can either be supportive or cut through the mix, or even do both of those at the same time. I like a bass to have a substantial bottom end without sounding artificial or over-hyped by electronics. A good Fender gives me that along with mids that speak and a musical treble. That is a tonal balance that eludes a lot of very expensive fancy basses, most of which, by comparison, are neither robust nor practical.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1472891713' post='3125059'] Which is precisely why we need to enjoy the stupidly good value of Maruszczyk while it lasts... [/quote] Maruszczyk basses do indeed look like tremendous value for money and no doubt they are. From experience though, if your heart is set on a particular bass - be it Fender, Sadowsky, Dingwall, whatever - however sensible and pragmatic a substitute might be, you are never truly satisfied. Pre-Brexit, I have been saving my pennies for MM Stingray Classic, but now I won't pay over the odds, leaving me with money in my pocket but no real prospects that excite me when it comes to UK-made basses not affected by the Brexit-induced price hike. ( Regaining British sovereignty is all very well, but it is of very little use when you are trying to pump out a heavy funk bassline. A Stingray would do nicely, though. )

I really like the oval Lakland bridge, but totally agree about the D Lakin headstock. I think he decided to go for an early Fender-style Tele headstock, and it just doesn't work. Regarding paint jobs, D Lakin basses are a case in point. Because Dan had no intention of offering a USA-made range, he was free to offer the most attractive colours such as Fiesta Red and Seafoam Green on his import line. Companies such as Fender and Lakland reserve them for their custom shop basses as an inducement for these prestige instruments. It makes sense from a marketing point of view. I know for a fact that custom USA Lakland basses are all shipped from Chicago to California to be painted by Pat Wilkins, widely accepted to be the best in the business for paint jobs, bar none. That is a significant cost incurred in their manufacture. The cheaper USA range will almost certainly be painted locally.

Definitely not now. That is, if you are talking about mainstream rock and pop music. Back in the '70's and '80's the bass guitar was far more evident on most popular music than it is now, not least of all because there were far fewer options. Nowadays, what with synth bass, 808's, sine wave etc. there is more competition for the low end of the musical spectrum. Different styles were always permissible, encouraged, even, and there was just much more bass guitar about back then. Listen to Radio 1 and then listen to an oldies station and compare the bass playing (or absence thereof) - it will prove my point. I started playing at the tail-end of the 1970's, inspired by a lot of the post-punk New Wave bands, so many of whom had exciting and interesting bass players who still stir my blood nearly forty years (!) later. Of course there are great young players coming through, but I just don't see the same number of innovative bass guitarists as in those heady days. Everybody knows that when they were young it was better than now, but when it comes to bass playing, the old days really were the best.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1472556145' post='3122031'] I agree 100% that Brexit will continue to affect instruments such as this. I also agree that black is no doubt THE most popular guitar and bass colour, it is just not for me. It isn't just the colour though, they just look extremely plain. I would be interested to know exactly what the differences are to a Skyline, that make it's more than double (I think?) the price. Electronics? Frets? Figured woods on the neck? Maybe it is just poor marketing. Do you get a good quality Lakland hardcase? It looks like you get the same pickups on the passive models.... [/quote] I'm not sure,but I think you get a quartersawn graphite-reinforced neck, for one thing, and that makes a huge difference between the USA basses and the Skylines. You really can feel the benefit. FWIW, even though my US Lakland is a step up in quality from even a good Fender bass, I still play my Fender P Bass far more and get greater enjoyment from it. Which I suppose raises the question how much anyone needs a super-high quality bass in comparison to a decent quality one. What I like about Laklands, though, is that I seem to be able to "get into" my playing on them a lot more than some high-end basses I have tried, where the "luxury" can be bit of a distraction.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1472496182' post='3121599'] Is that a rebadged US Lakland? [/quote] No, Fender Custom Shop.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1472328789' post='3120426'] In your opinion. Personally, I love interesting pastel colours such as surf green and sonic blue. Black? Nope. Let's be honest, you should be looking at details in a bass, especially £2300. It's all in the details. [/quote] Absolutely. Its all about details. Lakland's aim with these basses was to offer a bass at a lower price point whilst still giving the important construction details that elevate the US-made models over the Skyline. Whether they have succeeded, I've no idea. You would have to sit down and play and compare them. Regarding the UK retail price, that is dictated as much by the exchange rate as it is by all the other factors involved in its production. It would be very interesting to know if this is a pre or post Brexit price. I suspect that post Brexit we will all be left with a sour taste in our mouths when it comes to the price of US-made instruments. All of them are going to cost a bit more than they are actually worth. Lets face it , we were paying over the odds before the Brexit debacle, and now we are all sunk. It would be no problem to get a US Lakland in any of the colours you fancy, but you are looking at spending closer to four grand than the 2,300 quid you are currently balking at. Don't just blame Lakland though, blame Boris, Nigel et al. Regarding the colour choices, you may be averse to black, but all bass makers will tell you that it is a perennially popular choice. This has been brought home to me this weekend watching footage on tv from Reading and Leeds with my grandson. Band after band with black guitars and basses. And lots and lots of beards!

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1472324219' post='3120398'] Very well, I imagine, unless US Laklands are sprinkled with ground unicorn horn or something. [/quote] The ground unicorn horn is reserved for the Deluxe US models, I think. My point is that just because a bass may externally appear similar, it doesn't necessarily make it a comparable level of quality. Otherwise why not save yourself some money on your Maruszczyk and go for one of these: http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/3655160.htm?CMPID=GS001&_$ja=tsid:59161|cid:611964854|agid:35816374571|tid:pla-125531282725|crid:118127450171|nw:g|rnd:551713021227815912|dvc:c|adp:1o29 inexpensive, bright colour, ticks all the boxes.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1472216480' post='3119543'] That's exactly what I mean! The 2 comparisons above provide perfect examples. [/quote] If I might say, my friend, you seem preoccupied with largely irrelevant and superfluous details. Flamboyant colours and nitro finishes are not what separates a run of the mill instrument from a superior quality one. Besides which one man's "boring" is another man's "elegantly understated".

[quote name='Machines' timestamp='1472215360' post='3119523'] Like this US one for £2500: [url="http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/bass_guitars_detail.asp?stock=160805301291007"]http://www.guitargui...160805301291007[/url] Compared to this Skyline for half the price: [url="http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/bass_guitars_detail.asp?stock=10030310482629"]http://www.guitargui...=10030310482629[/url] [/quote] [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1472215828' post='3119535'] Or [url="http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/bass_guitars_detail.asp?stock=160805301289007"]from this[/url] to [url="https://public-peace.de/index.php/bass-guitars/maruszczyk/jake/4-string/1963-jake-l-4p-black160143"]this[/url], for nearly a third of the price, probably built with similar care & attention... [/quote] The Skyline comparison is a valid one, I suppose you would have to play them both and see if the American bass is worth the extra money. As the saying goes, "you pays your money and takes your choice". I've played a few Skylines over the years and, for the most part, they were nice basses. The full-spec US Laklands are however, a very different proposition. How these "budget" US Laklands compare I have no idea. As for the Maruszczyk, I have no idea how it would measure up against a US Lakland. All I would say is that if you like them then that is sufficient, but not all basses that appear externally similar are in fact equal.

OK Cheers for that. I can understand what you mean about it feeling weird with it being so light. It's a long time since I played a Status bass but I remember them being very punchy and hifi . Hope you are enjoying it.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1471535503' post='3113802'] I just don't think they offer anything significant for the money. Do you get a nice flame/birds eye roasted neck? No. Do you get extremely rare and interesting nitro colours etc? No. Boutique high end pickup? No. I understand these will be well made, but they just don't seem to be much more than a decent American Standard Fender. Although Sadowsky basses are more money, that is where I would go. That or a Fender Custom Shop. Even 2 Maruszczyk basses instead, and they'd be pretty much at the top of their range like a lightweight body. [/quote] [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1471536189' post='3113811'] I've just had a look at the 5 string Musicman style basses....wow, serious money. I thought there might be a really high end top or expensive looking semi trans finish/figured wood grain..... [/quote] It's worth mentioning that these basses are all from Lakland's "budget" USA-made range. They are made in the workshop in Chicago, but with more basic appointments and limited options compared with the more expensive full-spec American-made basses. The Lakland USA-made full-spec models offer all the things you say are missing from these ones, but especially post-Brexit, you will pay a premium for them in the UK. In terms of comparison, I've got a Fender American Standard Jazz Bass and P Bass and they are nice basses, but my USA Lakland PJ trounces them in terms of overall quality and playability. It is the most expensive instrument I've ever bought but it was worth every penny. Quite frankly it's in a different league. 'I'm not particularly keen on most fancy high-end boutique basses, but USA Lakland are a notable exception. They are solid and consistent workhorses. Add to that they offer something a bit different with their own custom pickups and hardware, and you can see why so many bass players enjoy them so much.

Wow looks amazing! I'd love to hear about how one of these feels to play compared to a conventional bass, and how the low B string sounds. Does the graphite give it an even and focused tone?

I can remember in the 1980's when plenty of UK retail shops had Wal basses in stock, especially in the Greater London area. That's when I played a fair few and I distinctly remember the substantial feel of the necks on all of them. When I see the eye-watering prices of a new Mk 1 Wal, how I wish I could go back in time! Lovely basses, but five grand? They were never that expensive back in the day, even allowing for inflation. I've never had one of my own, and I suppose now I never will. Such a shame as I would dearly love one.