Dingus

Whereas, as others have also stated , I don't subscibe to the idea of music being a competition where anyone can be crowned " the best", I think in this instance it is fair to say that Jamerson will have had far more of an influence on JPJ than the other way round . JPJ will certainly have been aware of Jamersons brilliance and has clearly tried to integrate some aspects of the Motown style into his own playing. JPJ and Bonham were instrumental in pushing what were at the time the contemporary styles of black music to the fore in Zeppelins music throughout their career , be it the nod of the head to Jamerson on The Lemon Song or the grooves on The Crunge and Trampled Underfoot , for example. There are also many more subtle examples that I won't bother going into here. Here is a video on Youtube of Zeppelin rehearsing with Jason Bonham for the 1988 Atlantic Records reunion and in between songs JPJ is jamming I Was Made To love Her; [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEJP5Fc49ss[/media] I am sure JPJ would be the first to acknowledge Jamersons' influence- he's obviously a fan. None of this takes away from JPJ's own achievement in any way, though. Of course he enjoyed Jamersons' playing just like we all do, but he still forged his own unique identity on the bass and is in his own right one of the all-time greats on the instrument.

I think the term "inimitable" applies to Mick Karn far more than most other bass players. He was a one-off in terms of his sound and his whole approach, to playing the bass. As this line demonstates , along with so many others you could point to, he is always close to the centre of attention when he plays but no matter how busy he might be, never gets in the way of the song. This is no mean feat. Like youself, i like to have a go at one or two of his lines now and again, but find it very hard-going to accurately follow what he is doing, probably because he has a genius for throwing in the unfamiliar and the unexpected. His playing is completely unfettered by conventional patterns and the cliches that many bass players rely on because by his own admission , he never learnt any of that stuff prefering instead to develop his own unique style. The chap in the video does a great job on a tricky, disjointed bass part and reminds me how brilliant Mick was. Good find.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1345489484' post='1778139'] This is another one of those 'I don't understand physics but when I turn up the mids I hear more distortion, therefore turning up the mid causes distortion'. It's just like 'If I stand further from my bass amp I can hear it better, therefore sound waves from bass take longer to develop.' Distortion is mainly second order harmonics added to your original signal. If you turn up the bass, the fundamental will get louder but the volume of the distortion will not increase. If you cut the mid then the distortion appears to decrease because you hear more fundamental. So effectively, yes, turning up the mid will increase the distortion, but only if the distortion is occurring before the EQ stage, eg in the preamp gain section or via a pedal etc. [/quote] +1 on what this man says. ( Although he too also obviously knows more about physics than me. I blame it on the faliure of the comprehensive school system, allied to the fact that I am of relatively low intelligence.) We are all almost talking at crossed-purposes in so much as their is a gulf between the theoretical phenomenon of measurable distortion and the practicalities of plugging a guitar or a bass into an amp, turning it up and hearing a distorted tone when you push up the mids in certain instances . I used to have a bass with specially wound pickups with an enhanced low-midrange to give a it sound that would allegedly cut through a wall of loud guitars ect. It seemed like a good idea on paper, but it would make just about any valve-based preamp , however hi-tech, sound like a fuzzbox if you weren't careful, making it a bit of an ongoing challenge to manage the levels and eq. Recording with it in a proper studio I remember being particulaly fraught.

[quote name='paulmcnamara' timestamp='1345501825' post='1778367'] For the classic SR5 sound try listening to a couple of tracks I played on with a previous band: Learn Again and Long Haul. They can be found on the link. [url="http://www.sanctuaryrig.co.uk/discography/khnosti.aspx"]http://www.sanctuary...hy/khnosti.aspx[/url] Good wishes, Paul. [/quote] Thanks for putting these tracks up Paul. I have just been listening to them and am really impressed not just with the bass sound but with the music overall. It sounds to me as if youir band has got a very strong 70s classic rock vibe ( no bad thing in my book, I hasten to add!). That first track Justify really reminds me of Whos Next- era Who, Some other tracks put me in mind of Argent, some other bits have a touch of Mott The Hoople. All right up my street, and a really refreshing range of influences for a band in the current musical climate. I would be very interested to know what kind of ages you and the other guys in the band are .

I could be wrong about this, but I think you will find that there haven't been any upgrades to the spec. of the five string American Standard Precision Bass for 2012. Where as the four string Am St. basses have been given Custom Shop pickups, the five string Precision and Jazz pickups remain unchanged , presumably because the Custom Shop don't make as standard a five string P or J pickup. So I presume the only upgrade has been to the price, unfortunately. I don't want to rain on anybodys parade, I just thought it was worth mentioning in case someone had presumed they would be getting new pickups . It still looks and sounds like a lovely bass to me, regardless.

[quote name='classrock' timestamp='1345313746' post='1776230'] Yes, that's the one ! You just know when things are right for you & this was. I bought it warts & all. I'll get some pics up soon. Thankyou, Chris [/quote] There's plenty of folks on here who will be looking forward to seeing that, Chris. It looks to be an exceptionally good and very clean example of a such an early model. That bass probably left the factory within the first few months of production- Stingray basses only commenced production in August 1976. Some real Musicman afficionados think that the Stingrays made within the first year or so of production are the best because by 1977 or so Leo and co.. had tweeked the preamp to change it's output slightly and in doing so altered the sound a little bit. I really don't know enough to vouch for the ins and outs of this, but this is information comes from someone who has had several vintage Stingrays and who knows far more than I. Maybe someone else on here can shed more light on it. The vintage of your bass suggests that it will have the earliest version of the Baxendale preamp, if I am not mistaken, thus making it even more desirable and collectable . Can't wait to hear all about your impressions of the bass once you have had a chance to familiarise yourself with it.

The Bongo really is a Musicman for the 21st Century. They have got a unique sound, and above all , like all Musicman basses, they are a bass for the real world; you can find a sound to cut through in any situation . Whether you are playing at a local pub or recording at Air Studios, you have got the best chance of actually making youself heard ( and /or felt) in the mix, rather than being left feeling like a bit of a mime artist, something I have found with some very expensive ( and very dissapointing) basses in the past. I'm not surprised you're excited about getting your 5HH. If you like Musicman basses -and lets face it, you do- then I would say a Bongo is mandatory. That tangerine pearl can I think be descibed as welll... very very orange. It's the one that Randy Jackson would probably choose . Onstage it will look amazing. I really dont think it's a coincidence that the Bongo has such an unapologetically modern and relentlessly powerful sound and I am sure that sound was created with the dense, mechanised sound of a lot of modern music in mind. The Bongo won't sound like any other bass- you can't make it pretend to be a Precision or Jazz bass, or even a Stingray, really- but then again , why would you want to? What will say about the Bongo is that if it was made by some small -scale exotic independent custom builder, you could stick another grand on the price and people wouldn't flinch at the final result for the money. Even at the new prices, I am struggling to think of a bass as good as the Bongo for the money.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1345302316' post='1776090'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLyV5JLvxM0[/media] [/quote] Great demonstation of one of the best sounding and best designed basses of all time, in my opinion. I know Bongos tend to polarise opinion , but have loved them from the first moment I saw them when they came out, which must be nearly ten years ago now. I am genuinely mystified when some people say they look ugly- anyone who has seen one in the flesh must surely be won over by their mixture of angles and curves and the sculptured 3-d chamfering of the body . For my money, this is still the best bass EB make and one of the best basses on the market full stop , and I mean even compared to sky-is-the-limit boutique basses. They tend to be fairly light in weight , feel great and sound as punchy as a kangaroo in boxing gloves.. That four band preamp is brilliant too. That Buttercream and tort. special edition . is the nicest colour scheme I have ever seen for a Bongo .

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1345273420' post='1775709'] Great clip, for me you couldn't mistake that bass for anything else blindfolded.....one of my favorite tunes to noodle on.... this version sounds to be in lower key than the recording (Ab?) I need to look at his playing to be sure, could be my ears, they are crap after all? What's the sound of Stingray...for me simply Max' Funk.... and for me the only bass that can deliver high treb's with bass that I can still feel in my stomach. I reckon there are only 3 main types of bass, everything else is a variation of their flavors. Every one should own at some time in their life, a P bass, a Jazz bass...and a StingRay....4 string of course! I think a single humbucker Stingray is always going to sound more 'treblely', simply down to the location of the rear positioned pup, I often play mine with max bass, mid and treb cut to min, she still sounds slightly harsher than my P bass with tone cut, but in a good way and still with a creamy bass bottom. NB:- I thought it was just me who loved the raw sound of fretting, clangs and the mechanical noise of strings on frets This clip is (previously posted under Mark Adams), for me and my 70's/80's funk tastes, is a fantastic example of a Stingray sound as 'raw' as it gets, without too much bass EQ, it still gives me goosebumps. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__w6tWywgLg[/media] [/quote] Loving this clip and and what seems to be an impromptu performance by a very capable player. Your right about the rawness of that Stingray ; there's something about the sound of the bass in this clip that captures the difference in sound between pre-EB basses and the current Stingrays. The treble seems to be on a slightly higher frequency giving it that razor- sharp slice that is so agressive and so appealing., but at the same time the whole sound is less zingy that an EBMM Ray. You can hear the same characteristic in Louis Johnson's Starlicks video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CslkVhOoE2U Regarding the other end of the tonal spectrum, one of the great things about the whole range of Musicman basses is that they all have massive bottom end. Even the single pickup Stingray is never lacking in thump whenever you want it.

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1345233682' post='1775463'] Marcus Millers sound is not simply scooped. An awful lot of people try and get his sound by eqing like mad and cant be heard at all in a mix. He's also very very adept at setting up the compression he uses to sculpt the bass sound, particularly the transient and the relative level of the rest of the note that follows that transient. His sound is clean because the peak level is beneath the maximum headroom of the amp. It is absolutely nothing to do with the eq on it at all. Its about appropriate gainstaging of his equipment for how he plays. If he made it louder it would distort when he exceeded the headroom of the amp. There is absolutely nothing else to it. You should read up a bit on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves"]Fletcher-Munson curves[/url] which describe the way the human ear is 'tuned' to certain frequency ranges at certain volumes through the evolutionary paths that have occured. We excel at hearing midrange information (a big part of why sucking the mids out of your bass tone is a killer for hearing the instrument in the mix), and suck at hearing deep bass and extreme high end. However that doesnt chnage the fact that the circuit is overloaded, and if you know what and how to listen for it you can pick it out. Midrange doesnt create distortion though. That is not the case. We hear better in the mid range (1Khz to 5KHz being the optimum area), but that is all. [/quote] If you re-read my post, you will see that I clearly state the Marcus boosts the bass and treble to create the apparent illusion of a mid-scooped sound. He doesn't actually remove his mids, and you are also quite right that compression is an integral part of his sound ( although it has to be said that the biggest part of his sound is him). As you peceptively point out, many people fail to grasp this in trying to imitate him. As I stated in my first post , part of the problem is that people have different ideas of what distortion is. I am talking more about that fuzzy clipping sound your cabs make when it sounds like they are being seriously damaged and may explode if not given some kind of respite. I only have a grade 3 C.S.E in physics ( lack of revision) , but i think it It may be called square wave distortion.

I've never had my hands on one of these but have always thought Sandberg basses as a whole always look very, very sturdy and well-made. That bridge looks pretty chunky , for a start. What I do know is that those Delano Pickups sound fantastic. I just wonder why they don't put dots on the fingerboard. Maybe they think it makes them look more modern. It looks like a lot of bass for £1100.

[quote name='classrock' timestamp='1345227667' post='1775347'] Bought the pre- eb Ray from Mark at Bass Direct today. One note was all it took. Amazing sound. I'm just gonna play this. Hope the guy trying the cabs got sorted. [/quote] Is that the '76 sunburst one ? If so then you have just taken home what looks to be a rare and very beautiful example of a truly iconic bass. I hope you will posting pics and be letting us know how you are getting on with it. Enjoy !

[quote name='mep' timestamp='1345225378' post='1775294'] Thanks for posting. That is one awesome sound and a great take on the original bassline. This whole arrangement really works well. Who is the guy on bass? [/quote] He is called Mark Plati. He is actually one of Bowies guitarists but for some reason - maybe someone else knows why- he plays bass on that song whilst usual bassist Gail Ann Dorsey ( who is also a brilliant player ,who favours a Stingray as well) plays guitar.

Perhaps I should make it clear that when I say guitar , I am referring to the six string variety, as opposed to a bass. By way of example, quite a popular tone for some guitarists nowadys is that scooped -out clean sound so apt for moody arpegios that to my knowledge was popularised by Metallica on the Black album , and you get that sound in large part by boosting the bass and treble. Back in the world of bass , Marcus Miller gets his famous signature scooped - out bright and tight tone by boosting the highs and lows and in the process creating the illusion of a recessed midrange. I am sure you are quite correct when you say that other frequencies introduce just as much distortion into the system, but in practise it will usually be the an over- emphasis in the mids which will most quickly produce the most noticable and clearly audible break up in the sound.

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1345219044' post='1775186'] No, that is all very well, but it doesnt change the facts, take any amp, or preamp, and push too much level in at a certain frequency range and it will overload the signal in that area of the frequency range. Jack Bruce has a notable mid hump in his eq (look at the vid of the Royal Albert Hall Cream concert and his hartke amps all have a marked frown shape eq on the graphic). If he had a noticeable bass bump instead he'd get just as much distortion, it just wouldnt be in the midrange. It doesnt matter if its old or new, the same thing applies. Midrange boost is no more likely to cause overdriving than a bass boost. The fact that a load of old vintage geezers used midrangey sounds pushed into overdrive is by the by. They used midrangey sounds for a load of reasons, getting enough volume without the power or speakers capable of generating very deep bass, or with tweeters for top end being a huge part of that. Even so mid range doesnt have a natural propensity to create distortion compared to bass. [/quote] i understand where you are coming from , but the simple fact is that, regardless of the physics involved, in practise if you take an old Marshall, Ampeg B15 ect. and turn up the mids the sound will soon start to distort , particulaly at higher volumes, Much more apparently than if you turn up the bass or treble. You are right that players consciously exploited a midrangey sound for various , and distortion was an unavoidable and not neccesarrily unwanted consequence. As I pointed out in my post and as you quite rightly refer to, Jack Bruce still alludes to that tone but as I clearly state , modern amps and cabs deal with it in a different way If you are playing loud , all my personal experience is that pronounced midrange will work your speakers the hardest , and particulaly with a bass guitar, it is that distortion in the midrange which is most apparent and can have a tendancy to start sounding ugly. Similaly with guitar, turn up the mids on a Marshall or Mesa Boogie and very soon it's crunch- city. Turn up the bass and treble and it doesn't start audibly distorting in the same way, in fact the sound seems to get cleaner if you turn both up at once.

I think part of the problem is that people have different ideas of what they mean when they say distortion. A scientists definition of distortion can be irrelevant to a musicians practical experience of distotion. To all intents and purposes, your guitarist is quite right; midrange frequencies are apt to push amps and speakers towards what players would call a distorted tone . At what point if any the sound actually starts going fuzzy ( for want of a better term) depends on a number of factors not least of all the efficiency of the equipment. Modern bass amps and cabs are by and large far more efficient than their vintage predecessors and can be driven much harder before the sound breaks up, but listen to old recordings of Jack Bruce with Cream and he is using a midrangey sound to make his Marshall amps and cabs distort. Geddy Lee has adopted a similar approach over the years. He still does kind of the same thing, but the sound of his his hi-tech Hartkes isn't going to break up in quite the same way. Geddy Lee has adopted a similar approach over the years. And a lot of guitar equipment features mid- boost controls to enhance distortion.

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1345210840' post='1775045'] Are you sure - I remember seeing an interview with Nile Rogers - he said someone asked them as part of an interview with them both back in the 70s, what strings Nard used and Nard asked Nile if he knew what strings came on a Musicman............suggesting he hadn't changed them from new. My pre EB definitely came with rounds but I have no idea what make. All that said, the popping on We Are Family is definitely very similar to the effect on a Stingray with flats - but Bernard Edwards was a phenominally skilled player, particularly of groove so no doubt a great deal was in the fingers - he may also have had the mutes wound on. [/quote] I had wondered about this too. I had always presumed the Bernard had used roundwounds, as most players probably did by 1977, but that is just an assumption. If someone knows better then I wil gladly defer to them . I have no idea if flats or rounds came factory -fitted on the early production models of the Stingray, and I too have heard that quote about him using the same strings that came with the bass. What I do know is that in the later stages of his career he was definitely using roundwounds and favoured a brighter sound. If you listen to Bernard on this track from Let's Dance , for example, which must have been recorded in 1982 it sounds very much to me like the unmistakable tone of a Stingray with roundwounds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cs8EkDyqCo

I seem to remember seeing this clip in some other context on Basschat, but I watched it again recently and was struck by what a great example of what is to me the archetypal Stingray sound . The full-bore attack of this bass allied to the superb skills of the guy who's playing it.makes every note punch through the mix on this performance.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwel8tQPg8

The whole track is sizzling with intensity . Love the reprise , love the bass and drums , and the low-fi guitar solo at the end caps it off nicely. Great find.

You have to have some sympathy with the retailers in respect of this problem. If they let people try out the guitars they run the risk of their stock getting worn or damaged, and if they refuse people the chance to try them they are accused of being miserable and mean spirited. I know a lot of the specialist retailers in America limit the time people can try the basses for. It's become a common and accepted practise.

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1345136833' post='1774175'] If you read the first post, it was chiefly paintwork issues on more than one bass. Can't think how that might have happened in transit... [/quote] Maybe so , but I am making a general point about guitars in shops. I have seen plenty of instruments in retail outlets over the years that were supposed to be brand new but had recieved varying degrees of wear and/or abuse through careless handling in some way or another.

I came across this bass cover on youtube a while ago and it stuck in my mind for a few reasons. Firstly, it's a great choice of bassline and a little bit off the beaten track of youtube bass covers, secondly it's beautifully executed by the chap - his feel , timing and tone are perfect and seem completely faithful to Chuck Raineys' original performance - and lastly it's really refreshing to see a younger player who doesn't neccesarily think that being a great bass player is all about two -handed tapping a palm-muted double thump version of J.S Bach. He is from the U.K apparently, so maybe he is on Basschat. I really enjoyed this anyhow: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kk2b_9PYQg[/media]

I agree with you Pete , that this is a masterful piece of work by Chuck Rainey , and I salute the fact that you are able to tackle it at all! I cannot think of a better example of a bassline that sounds reasonably straightforward on first hearing, but when you sit down to try and have a go at it yourself turns out to be a much more daunting prospect. What a player and what a performance. I think both approaches you outline are perfectly o.k - who's to say that Chuck wouldn't throw in the odd change or ad lib if he was playing the song again now- but I suppose the more you know of the original version, the more you could work it in to your own rendition. It sounds like you are only talking about the finer points of the line anyway. I've seen video of Nearly Dan on this site and always been full of admiration for the playing of all the musicians. The thought has crossed my mind on who the target audience would be for a Steely Dan tribute band would be. I have been loving the Dan for nearly the last thirty years since a guitarist friend really got me into them, but I know some people find their music a bit esoteric . To people used to listening to more mainstream pop music the more sophisticated approach of Becker and Fagen can be hard to enjoy, in my experience. I would be genuinely interested to know what kind of venues/ functions are booking your band.; whoever it is it must be someone who has good taste. Obviously they are, because the band have been working for 15 years,

With any bass you try in any shop, a lot can have happened to it in between leaving the factory and you picking it up to play it in the showroom.