Dingus

As others have said, these prices seem to put Musicman almost up there with a lot of the custom/ boutique bass builders . One thing I have noticed since the recession took hold in the last 4 or 5 years is that manufacturers have chanced their arm at covering their costs /protecting their profit margins by steadily increasing prices to the consumer , and have I think been surprised by how little effect it has had on sales and how easily they have gotten away with it ; if someone has got their heart set on a particular piece of equipment they may grumble a bit but end up buying it anyway. There must surely however, be a certain point where the market won't follow. Where that point is is anyones guess, though.

The recent ( by which I mean post-2008) Fender American Standard basses, both Precision and Jazz, are really excellent instruments and still represent good value for money even after recent price increases when you compare them to other basses on the market for similar money. Regarding whether they are a better investment than the Mexican equivalent, by the time you have spent money on a good case, and a new pickguard for the Mex one you have already wasted some of the cash you have saved over buying the American one on stuff that comes for free with the American Standard ; I don't know if you are aware that the U.S .A -made bassses come with a superb a.b.s case, strap, lead, polishing cloth ect and a tortoiseshell pickguard comes as standard on the white and sunburst models. 2012 models also have Custom Shop pickups, but the pre -2012 ones also sound fine. These basses also have graphite-reinforced necks and should sound and play better than Mexican ones. I would have to add ,however, that with Fender basses you have to seek out a " good" one i.e tight neck pocket ect. If you are buying your bass new from a shop, they should be able to set the bass up for you included in the price. Buying online this could be a bit more of a problem, but some online retailers are also shops and could set up the bass for you before they send it maybe. In terms of investment, the American Standard will also hold a better resale value than the Mexican Standard but also more importantly will be a much more satisfying instrument to own and use in the long- term. Unless you have a pressing need ( ie you need a backup for gigs ect) to own two basses, it's far better to have one good instrument than two mediocre/poor ones. If at all possible, go to a shop and try the two models and compare the sound and feel of them; you say you like the neck profile of your existing p bass, but do not assume that all p bass necks are the same profile as that one. There is huge variation between model and make ; the American Standard has a 1.625 width at the nut , where as many p basses have a wider 1.75 inch width.

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1343384915' post='1749831'] It's possible they both came up with it separately. Fender used to fit a tug bar to their basses, you'd hook your fingers under it and play the strings with your thumb. It's not such a big step to slap the strings occasionally, particularly since players have been doing it on upright basses for years. [/quote] +1 on what this man says. I expect Louis Johnson must have at least heard something of what Larry was doing though ; Sly and the Family Stone were an internationally successful act, and Graham Central Station had mainstream success too, both well before Louis came to prominence. Louis could ( and most probably did ) still have developed his own technique independent of Grahams' direct influence, but I don't think he arrived on the scene in the mid 70s thinking no one had ever slapped before. Maybe no one had ever slapped quite like he did in The Brothers Johnson , though. Both great players in a great era for music.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1343377369' post='1749661'] For me there seem to be two "typical" Ray sounds (although they'll do lots of other things); the RATM-type sound (clicky, zingy, scooped - to my ears) and the Bernard Edwards sound, which is kind of the opposite. I've used two in various bands and have never been able to get a sound I was happy with. They just seemed kind of isolated from the music I was playing whatever I did with them, which isn't what I'm after, and I found them strangely undynamic to play, although one of them is a friend's bass and it sounds great in his hands & in his band. On the other hand I briefly had a passive OLP that really nailed the Bernard sound, far better than the 2x Rays, strangely enough. I'd still like one though if I could find one that worked, although IME the Streamer Pro M seems to work better for me. [/quote] [quote name='4000' timestamp='1343377369' post='1749661'] For me there seem to be two "typical" Ray sounds (although they'll do lots of other things); the RATM-type sound (clicky, zingy, scooped - to my ears) and the Bernard Edwards sound, which is kind of the opposite. I've used two in various bands and have never been able to get a sound I was happy with. They just seemed kind of isolated from the music I was playing whatever I did with them, which isn't what I'm after, and I found them strangely undynamic to play, although one of them is a friend's bass and it sounds great in his hands & in his band. On the other hand I briefly had a passive OLP that really nailed the Bernard sound, far better than the 2x Rays, strangely enough. I'd still like one though if I could find one that worked, although IME the Streamer Pro M seems to work better for me. [/quote] I think the two nicely chosen examples you give for classic Stingray tones -RATM and Bernard Edwards- - perfectly demonstrate the range of tones from a Stingray. Reading this made me think about Tony Levin; he seems to combine something of both of these tones in his own unique ( and brilliant) approach . Maybe a big part of the enduring appeal and popularity of these basses is that they manage to combine a robustness ( both in terms of construction and tone) with a versatility that allows the bass to either be supportive or up front and at the centre of attention. Not many basses can cut through like a Stingray, especially in a loud rock group situation, but as well as having a slicing treble and upper mid rasp there is always plenty of bottom end available. Those Streamer Pro Ms were /are fantastic basses, by the way . I nearly bought one when they were out , and have subsequently sometimes regretted not doing so. They get so many great and very usable sounds from that dual pickup arrangement. A bit of a lost classic , in my opinion. Talking of Warwicks and Stingray tones, for what it's worth, I think that the Warwick take on the classic MM humbucker used on the Jazzman , $$ ect is a really excellent sounding design that to my ears is more reminiscent of very early versions of the Stingray than most others I have heard. Whether this is entirely due to the pickup or the preamp they have allied it to I really don't know , but the overall result sounds very good to me. It would be interesting to hear one of these pickups in a Musicman bass.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343331944' post='1749186'] I think a lot of it is rose tinted specs though and more about the value of them than how much you liked them? The other problem is the people who think those basses are still there at those prices! I have often seen people comment on pre EB threads about the price and remarks about how little they cost in the USA, they think the same basses are $750 in the States the same as they were when they went on holiday in 1992 [/quote] It most certainly is about the cash value of them now rather than how they performed as instruments. Especially in respect of the mid to late 70s Fenders I used to own , the prices people are now paying for these collectables far exeeds their actual worth in terms of sound and playability, at least in my opinion anyway. As I am sure you are well aware , this era was not Fenders finest hour in terms of build quality or quality control, or indeed styling and I honestly believe that a modest Mexican Fender from the present day could be preferable to one of these if someone were to put prejudices and vintage hype aside . Even the early 70s Fenders I used to own which are now considered proper vintage would be trounced in many respects by one of todays American Standards. Of course you get the odd gem , but by and large late 70s Fenders were shabbily built by todays standards and often weighed a ton. Dont get me wrong, each to their own,, but people can get nostalgic over anything, however awful it was, and this to me is a case in point. I am not lumping original Musicman in with these by any means; their star was in ascendancy as Fender's was in decline My pre EB MM was built perfectly satisfactorily as far as I recall, but even at the time I remember thinking that the new EBMM Stingrays played better , had nicely figured maple necks and if anything sounded even more dynamic and punchy. than my original. I certainly don't mean to rubbish anyone elses vintage collection-everybody's got their own reasons for choosing what they like ,I love old Fenders and there are still a great many vintage basses that I drool over that are probably fantastic instruments to own- but for myself personally they are not the most practical choice anymore. Regarding what people think these things are worth, i find that the same people who who have what I can euphamistically describe as extremely optimistic ( read: low) estimations of the value what you are selling are the exact same people who have hopelessly inflated estimates of the value of what they themselves have . As for the old urban myth of You Can Pick Them Up For Next To Nothing In The States, I would have to point out that the USA is the most developed capitalistic consumer society in the history of Mankind ; trust me when I tell you that if there was something - indeed anything- that was cheap in America that was valuable in the rest of the world then the Americans themselves would have taken full advantage of it a long time ago and exploited that market until it was exhausted . The laws of Supply and Demand are inescapable even in the world of rock and roll . American guitars are just as collectable , desirable and sought after in the USA as they are here and prices have certainly reflected that as long as I have been going over there , which i suppose would be back to the Reagan era. The only advantage in the guitar market in America is choice and availability.Prices often exceed those in Europe.

[quote name='clashcityrocker' timestamp='1343321767' post='1748977'] The last show we played I fell off the drum stage and nearly smashed the head on a monitor so I was edging towards a cheaper bass for these shows. And yeah i know basses are made for playing but I gig it all the time in my other band,my point was I can't find a cheaper bass that's any good after the MM. Have painted my old p bass and now look forward to road wearing this at shows, I think there is nothing wrong with wanting my mm as mint as possible for as long as possible,I doubt il ever buy another £1400 bass! I look forward to drinking too much and not worrying about my p bass from now on,especially how cool they look worn in. Although its now baby blue which ain't very punk :-p [/quote] There's nothing wrong with wanting to keep your MM in good condition, but , these are fairly robust basses , especially compared to most other boutique basses , and ultimately everything on them is fixable/replacable if you decide to risk it in future.. A Precision is great for punk though , regardless of sparing your other bass.

I;m just glad its gone to a good home then, Pete ! If I wanted to could spend many an hour regretting basses I have let go of for what in retrospect was silly money, but I suppose hindsight is always 20/20, and I can remember when you could you could call in to the Bass centre at Wapping back in the 1980s and they would almost always have two or three pre EBMM Stingrays priced at £495.The next time you went in a few weeks later they had all been sold and a couple of different ones had arrived. I got mine from an advert in the back of Melody Maker for just over three hundred quid, I cant remember the exact amount. I paid . I remember selling 1970s Precision basses for £200 in the late 1980s and that being considered the going rate for them, , and selling a mint 1978 Jazz bass around then for about 350 quid, and being glad with what I got for it. Even allowing for inflation these sums in no way reflect the current market prices of these basses.

Aren't ceramic pickups typically supposed to be a bit mor agressive sounding, as opposed to the slightly sweeter sounding anlico ones? I would love a retro burst Stingray Classic 4 but , as with all Stingrays nowadays , the chances are that it would be too heavy for me now that my advancing years begin to take their toll. If I could guarantee a light weight I would jump at one , but aparrently EBMM cannot give any assurances on weight for customer orders ,unfortunately. A long time ago I used to have a mint condition pre -EBMM Stingray that was light as a feather but in my youthful inexperience I just presumed all Stingrays were that light , that pre -EBMMs were not uncommon and I decided to let it go for something else I fancied at the time , It must have been a fairly late model because it had a four bolt neck and was in superb nick . I love the look of the new Stingray Classics ; to my sensibilities a Stingray doesn't look quite right without the old style bridge with the mutes, ( not that I have/would ever actually use the mutes but...) and that figured maple neck with the gloss finish is stunning.

I can't comment on the Sterling 5 because I haven't played one ( I've heard them on Youtube though and they sound fantastic) but from memory, the series/parrallel switching on the Sterling 4 makes ,to my ears at least the kind of difference I am talking about. What is for certain is that on the Stingray , its unique tone is in no small part due to that parrallel wiring. It gives it that scooped mid and extended treble that makes it sound like a Musicman .

I can't comment on the Sterling 5 because I haven't played one (

I don't know who played it , but whoever it was did an amazing job. It sounds a bit like it might be Bernard Edwards,but not quite. I know the track was produced by Stevie Wonder ( who also sings a bit on it) , so maybe Nathan Watts is an outside bet.

I know what you mean about the " boing" in the Musicman sound ; for years and years I wondered what it was that gave them that characteristic zingy sound. Subsequently I have realised that it's mostly due to the parrallel wiring of that pickup which gives the Stingray such a wierd spread-out frequency response with a pronounced scoop in the low mids and an emphasis in the upper-mid, low-treble More recent EBMM designs that offer the option of switching the pickups into series mode demonstrate just how profound a difference this makes: in series mode the basses sound much more like other generic brands and disinctly "un-Musicman like " , for want of a better term.

You are quite right, ; the final bass sound on a record is dependant on a great many factors. I only meant to say that in this particular case it sounds to my ears as if they have endeavoured to reflect that hollow -but -punchy ,slightly more rounded Stingray tone made so popular by players such as Pino Palladino during this era that you can get in real life ( as opposed to the recording studio) by backing of a little on the treble control, or at least leaving it alone . It's also concievable mind you, that if they liked the sound of the direct signal coming from David Patons bass ,including his own eq , that they might not have done too much to it except add some compression ect. Complete speculation on my part ,of course .

£1500 ?!! That 's an amazing deal! The 2011/12 U.K retail price on these was £2200 for a single H . May I ask , was that price for a brand new Reflex or an old stock 25TH Anniversary? I suppose either way , that's a fantastic price.

I have always thought the bassline on Nikita by Elton John ( played by the exellent David Paton) was a superb example of at least one version of the classic Stingray tone. I say at least one version because , as with any bass, the tone is variable according to the eq of the bass, amp , compressor , mixing desk ect, and not least of all the touch and technique of the player themself. On the aforementioned Nikita, for example, it sounds as if the treble is either flat or even rolled off a little to avoid that zingy high end inherent to the Stingray. Whatever way they have eq'd it , the bass sits beautifully in the mix on that track and cuts through even on a rubbish transistor radio.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1342970941' post='1743270'] I think it was a 5 I tried. Part of the issue for me was the small body size and the position of the upper strap button up over the 14th/15th fret. [/quote] I take your point about the strap button position and body shape ; I have always loved the sound ( and look) of Warwick Thumb basses but the combination of the compact body, 26 fret neck and short tophorn has meant that the ergonomics have always prevented me from buying one. I think the 22 fret neck on the Reflex prevents it from feeling as ungainly as a Thumb bass in that respect .

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1342970681' post='1743265'] The new version of the Reflex have the new lighter tuners that Musicman have started fitting to the Big Al/Reflex/Bongo. [/quote] [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1342970681' post='1743265'] The new version of the Reflex have the new lighter tuners that Musicman have started fitting to the Big Al/Reflex/Bongo. [/quote] I know the existing Reflexes have always had lightweight/scaled- down tuners unique to that model fitted as standard so , although the new lightweight tuners may be styled slightly differently, I am not sure how much of an advantage they will offer over the older ones in terms of weight and therefore balance. The new tuners look very similar to the older " standard" Reflex / 25th Anniversary tuners to me, anyway . Compare them and see what you think.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1342864334' post='1741943'] I've played one and thought it was really versatile and had a lot of useful tones quickly available simply by jabbing a button Balance wasn't great though and values plummet like crazy for used ones [/quote] I would be very intrested to know if it was a four or a five string that you tried. Perhaps the five string might be a bit more prone to neck -diving because of the bigger neck ( I think the dimensions of the body are the same on four and five string models). If dr T Stingray played a four string and Molan had played a five that might explain the divergence of experience in respect of the balance of this bass.